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The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

A mixed noble death at that, with very little to bridge the failed-Hero to redeemed.
This will undoubtedly vary from person to person, but I felt there was enough to connect the failed hero to redeemed path in the films as presented. Now, I know that I am a very different person when it comes to willingness to engage with the material but I was able to read enough that I could follow the steps for Luke.

Obviously, not everyone will read it that way and that's OK. But, for me, it worked because I can see the elements of Luke's character throughout.
 
This will undoubtedly vary from person to person, but I felt there was enough to connect the failed hero to redeemed path in the films as presented. Now, I know that I am a very different person when it comes to willingness to engage with the material but I was able to read enough that I could follow the steps for Luke.

Obviously, not everyone will read it that way and that's OK. But, for me, it worked because I can see the elements of Luke's character throughout.

I see them...but I also heard the screech as the needle skipped across the platter. It also ignores the character as a Hollywood archetype. The illusion of the happy ending at bare minimum. Even Travis Bickle gets one of those, even if just below is the knowledge it isn’t one. If they made a sequel to inception and suddenly revealed DiCaprios character (the Mrs will not forgive me for knowing his name.) was definitely inside a dream, and then gets killed off after being made miserable, it breaks the contract with the audience of that earlier story.

The problem with Luke is that he didn’t die after killing his mordred. Partially because he doesn’t have one (unless things are about to get very Games of Throney in IX.) He’s already been the ‘hero who returns in hour of need’ but that’s because they cut and pasted badly in TLJ...he wasn’t absent on a quest, he had just gone into the wilderness off screen, and he hadn’t died yet, so that wasn’t Avalonanalogue he was slurping blue milk in. There’s a slapdash approach to cutting and pasting the bits of the archetype story that isn’t working...because it’s a bit like head butting a piano. You can arrange musical notes into all sorts of orders, and they still work, you can fiddle with bits of the archetype (Luke gets to be a hero who refuses the call twice...) but, if you don’t know what you are doing, you get a discordant din.

I think Johnson only gets a surface reading of the underlying structures being played in Star Wars, só when he got to play his bit in response to JJ doing his riff, after George handed off his sax, he bungled it. Everyone else was playing Jazz, but Johnson went for Speed Death Metal. There are people nodding their head and going ‘ooh subverted, I wasn’t expecting that, so it must be cool’ whereas others, particularly the musicians in the audience, are quietly shaking their heads. Johnson doesn’t get it. You improvise on a theme, add your bit, not start playing a whole different thing.

I wonder if they will go full Mordred now, and reveal Luke is the father. Ironically...it would iron out many problems, but totally destroy Star Wars.
 
I think Johnson only gets a surface reading of the underlying structures being played in Star Wars, só when he got to play his bit in response to JJ doing his riff, after George handed off his sax, he bungled it. Everyone else was playing Jazz, but Johnson went for Speed Death Metal. There are people nodding their head and going ‘ooh subverted, I wasn’t expecting that, so it must be cool’ whereas others, particularly the musicians in the audience, are quietly shaking their heads. Johnson doesn’t get it. You improvise on a theme, add your bit, not start playing a whole different thing.
To carry forward your analogy I will disagree. I see it as Johnson changing the key. I'm not doing the whole "Oh, I'm being subverted in my expectations so 'Wow!'" I'm not so superficial on that. What I see is Johnson taking a much more minor key with the story. I think it almost has echoes of ROTS in its tone. At least at this point, I am willing to stop staring at what Johnson says he is doing and just be in the story. Thus far, I am following the music just fine. :shrug:
 
To carry forward your analogy I will disagree. I see it as Johnson changing the key. I'm not doing the whole "Oh, I'm being subverted in my expectations so 'Wow!'" I'm not so superficial on that. What I see is Johnson taking a much more minor key with the story. I think it almost has echoes of ROTS in its tone. At least at this point, I am willing to stop staring at what Johnson says he is doing and just be in the story. Thus far, I am following the music just fine. :shrug:

Indeed, it was unfairly hyperbolic of me to suggest everyone who likes it is being superficial, but it suited the allegory image.
Tone wise, it’s more an (unsurprising in this regard) ESB homage. Extremely similar.
 
Indeed, it was unfairly hyperbolic of me to suggest everyone who likes it is being superficial, but it suited the allegory image.
Tone wise, it’s more an (unsurprising in this regard) ESB homage. Extremely similar.
It is in terms of tone, but I think implications are larger and similar in tone to ROTS as well.

I think the main thing, for me, is how this story ends. RoTS will be more informative for me than my current view of TLJ. Same thing with ESB. ESB is widely and popularly acclaimed, but ROTJ informed so much of the backstory that it made ESB grander by inclusion. I will be curious to see what RoTS will bring.
 
Often, people that defend this film to me will go point by point, talking about each scene, justifying it by either comparing it to scenes in the original or talking about how the scene works on its own or charts a new course or it works with the story yadda yadda. I usually disagree with ALL of these observations. That said, even if that hypothetical person could convince me.. even if I said "sure" to every one of the points, I would still hate the film. It has no consistent through line, it's too convoluted, it tries to tackle deep themes in a kindergarten way, it has terrible humor, terrible editing, terrible performances, adn it embraces an overall cynicism that Star Wars was, at its best, always above.. the original film was all about people fighting the good fight. Even they could justify Luke leaving his friends and family or Holdo being a bitch more than a leader.. I ask: why is this entertaining? Why is this fun and exciting?
 
Often, people that defend this film to me will go point by point, talking about each scene, justifying it by either comparing it to scenes in the original or talking about how the scene works on its own or charts a new course or it works with the story yadda yadda. I usually disagree with ALL of these observations. That said, even if that hypothetical person could convince me.. even if I said "sure" to every one of the points, I would still hate the film. It has no consistent through line, it's too convoluted, it tries to tackle deep themes in a kindergarten way, it has terrible humor, terrible editing, terrible performances, adn it embraces an overall cynicism that Star Wars was, at its best, always above.. the original film was all about people fighting the good fight. Even they could justify Luke leaving his friends and family or Holdo being a bitch more than a leader.. I ask: why is this entertaining? Why is this fun and exciting?
Why do you care what *I* find entertaining? And in the reverse, you don't enjoy the movie. That's fine. Not all movies are for everyone. Go and be well.
 
Why do you care what *I* find entertaining? And in the reverse, you don't enjoy the movie. That's fine. Not all movies are for everyone. Go and be well.
People all over these boards give their opinion. That's all I just did. I could have given the opinion in the TNG thread that "I hate "Unification" and given reasons, and I doubt anyone would have problem even if they loved it
 
People all over these boards give their opinion. That's all I just did. I could have given the opinion in the TNG thread that "I hate "Unification" and given reasons, and I doubt anyone would have problem even if they loved it

You've given your opinion at least fifty times in this very thread. We get it. You hate it. You've said your piece. No one has a problem with the fact that you don't like it. But we just keep going around in circles. Nothing new has been added to this thread in about twenty pages. Let. The. Thread. Die.
 
I actually kind of agree. My only thing was that I had finally been able to consolidate all of my thoughts into one paragraph.. and wanted to share it. It covered pretty much all of my feelings, and I'm, for the most part, willing to let it go at that.
but.. hey there are a lot of long threads here that probably should have died before this one. Disney is wondering why GE is struggling, and part of that reason is that people cannot get invested in the films..hence why TLJ is relevant
 
One of the issues I have with judging TLJ at this point is that it is the middle act of a three act trilogy. It does not start the story. It does not end the story. It carries the middle. The characters are going from A to C and this is B. Until we see C we won't know what we have in B. That was true for TESB back in the day. Many fans hated it. After ROTJ came out and we could enjoy the films as a whole on TV or VHS, fans realized what TESB was and it went from the #3 film to the #1 film on many fans lists. Most of the flaws that I see being pointed out fall into one of two categories. Either fans are forgetting this is the middle film in the trilogy (so the middle of the story... an Act 2 of 3) or they are taking Kylo Ren's statements and grumpy Luke's statements as the core of the film (when the film really is about showing how those two views are totally wrong).
 
People all over these boards give their opinion. That's all I just did. I could have given the opinion in the TNG thread that "I hate "Unification" and given reasons, and I doubt anyone would have problem even if they loved it
You didn't just give an opinion, you asked a question:
I ask: why is this entertaining? Why is this fun and exciting?
My answer is it shouldn't matter to you. You don't like the movie, move on from it and live your best life. Lots of people don't like things. Some people don't like Star Wars at all. Some people don't like Star Trek. It happens. You don't need to contunally request others to justify their opinions nor continually try to justify yours. Move on and be well.
Disney is wondering why GE is struggling, and part of that reason is that people cannot get invested in the films..hence why TLJ is relevant
GE is struggling according to... whom? Looking at wait times in the park right now (12:15PM Florida time on a Tuesday), the wait time for Smugglers Run is 60 minutes, tied with Test Track at Epcot as the longest wait time in all of Disney World. Avatar Flights of Passage is only 55 minutes, Frozen Ever After is 40, Big Thunder Mountain is 20, Expedition Everest is 30. I would say it is doing quite well. Looking over st Disneyland, a similar story. Smugglers Run is the longest wait in the park at 55 minutes, the next longest is Peter Pan's Flight at 35, and Space Mountain at 30. Considering Smugglers Run has multiple ride vehicles ("cockpits") I would say that is healthy interest.
 
First of all the questions I asked at the end of my review are rhetorical. people do that.. and if the reader CAN answer them that is fine.. the questions represent something about the film that I find difficult to level with.
Also, .. yeah I have read more things about GE failing.. I DO think more time needs to be allowed to see how it all shakes out. But I could spend a lot of time backing up the numbers .. I will just say that the park is supposed to tie into the ST story and if that story doesn't interest the base of fans anymore that will be a problem for Disney especially 3 or 4 years down the road. When universal opens up their Nintendo park and GE is still all about Rey and Kylo, we will see who wins
 
Also, .. yeah I have read more things about GE failing..

Provide links. $5 says if you actually do, it will be from a Fandom Menace source, the people who literally tear apart every news article in order to try little bits and pieces that could possibly if the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars and if you squint after a black cat crosses your path it might indicate that Galaxy's Edge is failing. The long lines that @EnderAKH posted that can actually be proven are better than the Fandom Menace lies and supposition.
 
First of all the questions I asked at the end of my review are rhetorical. people do that.. and if the reader CAN answer them that is fine.. the questions represent something about the film that I find difficult to level with.
Also, .. yeah I have read more things about GE failing.. I DO think more time needs to be allowed to see how it all shakes out. But I could spend a lot of time backing up the numbers .. I will just say that the park is supposed to tie into the ST story and if that story doesn't interest the base of fans anymore that will be a problem for Disney especially 3 or 4 years down the road. When universal opens up their Nintendo park and GE is still all about Rey and Kylo, we will see who wins
GE is not failing, not in either park. What has been true is that park attendance in general has been down due to non-Star Wars fans trying to avoid the opening crowds. If the huge opening crowds have not appeared, it is because people have been trying to avoid them and most people plan their DL or WDW trips months in advance so it will take a few more months for things to equal out and regular crowds reappear. You can clearly tell this is the case in DL where the wait time for Peter Pan is barely over 30 minutes. That is down from more than 70. People have been planning around expected crowds (in spite of Disney planning for them as well) and as a result this has been a great year for the people who have gone because wait times are down on everything. The fact Smuggler's Run is so high indicates a huge interest in that ride over the other options. So GE is not a flop. People didn't trust Disney to plan for the crowds so they planned their trips later to avoid the crowds they expect and that Disney's careful planning prevented. The numbers speak loud and clear that this is the case and that nothing is failing. Everything is succeeding and overall park attendance has been down in both DL and WDW during this period. That uncomfortable crowds have not appeared does not mean a lack of success. Everyone I've heard who has been there has raved about it.
 
Since I don't know much about the bounds of Fandom Menace are I'm not going to kowtow to your request.. I know that Clownfish TV .. both of them actually are fans and bloggers for Disney they used to be anyway, and they have posted videos about the stats of the park.. and you will cry foul on it because they also discuss the same data that G & G post and I know you think G & G are part of the Fandom Menace.. and so even if the data is factual (I'm not stating in THIS post if a hypothetical article is correct or not) you would still dismiss it out of hand regardless based on the conditions you layed out. I found that the fact that this is even up for debate at all and that they are advertising GE (when Iger said they would not need to advertise and they could just tweet that 's open) is a testament that the park has not lived up to what they hoped for
 
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