A theory for the supersized Abramsverse fleet.

[pst]

Here were my problems with the Abramsprise:

as i said, subjective but valid.

why do i love the kelvin enterprise? because it is a re-think on the classic design. even the saucer which everyone bashes as a straight pull from the refit enterprise was in fact redesigned and reconsidered. like you, i didn't love it at first because yeah that angle they chose for the first publicity image wasn't particularly flattering. but i love how far apart this version of the enterprise sits from the rest of the lineage. without getting too deep into it (we've been here before), there are real architectural and design theories at play in the design and, most importantly, it's a bold statement on film.

I was annoyed because they seemingly redesigned the ship for no apparent reason.

how do you feel about the discovery-verse enterprise? talk about redesign for no apparent reason...

 

[Dukhat]

how do you feel about the discovery-verse enterprise? talk about redesign for no apparent reason...

When I first saw it, it didn't bother me at first (probably because it looks far more like the TOS Enterprise than the Abramsprise does). But over time I've come to realize that it's really just a pale and uninspired imitation of the original. It's 2019, but there really isn't anything about this new design that's qualitatively better than the '60's original. As I've mentioned before in another thread, it looks like someone just started out with the NX-01 from ENT and changed it into the shape of the TOS Enterprise but still kept all the NX detailing. It looks great for a ship that was built a few decades after the NX-01 but a few decades before the TOS original. But to say it's the same ship as the TOS Enterprise just disrespects the original IMHO.

 

[Phoenix219]

Thats part of why I like the idea of DSC being the 23rd century extroplated from the ENT timeline, where things diverged after FC, including some design aesthetics and a tribute to the name Enterprise coming from that encounter. Before the FC rewrite, the 22nd century and before would have looked more like TOS and the original fan ideas and tech manuals from back in the day; after FC, it turns into ENT -> DSC. Most events are the same because FC didn't really contaminate the timeline too much. The TOS ship seen on ENT was sent into the Mirror Universe before the FC/ENT rewrite happened and is a fragment/relic from a timeline that no longer exists. All other TOS nods were done in the Berman shows before the FC/ENT rewrite happened. Its consistent. That would make the Kelvin (pre rewrite ship) part of the ENT->DSC design lineage, as well.

 

[Dukhat]

^I don't think anything diverged after FC. FC happened the way it was always supposed to happen. Because we saw what happened without the Borg and Picard & co.'s intervention: Cochrane blows the Vulcan ambassador away with a shotgun, the humans loot the Vulcan ship, and the rest of the Mirror Universe happens.

 

[Phoenix219]

Nope, that was another universe altogether where humans were more violent and militant. It was always a separate physical universe IMO, and those events had nothing to do with what would have happened in the regular universe. If it wasn't for the Borg, Cochrane would have had first contact with the Vulcans, and things would have happened more or less the same, but the tech would have looked different, and the first ship would have been named something different, and some early ship models may have looked different.


If the Mirror Universe did have a divergent point from Prime (which I don't personally agree with), then it was something like the Nazi's winning WW2 in "City" or something very early on like Farragut's "For the Want of a Nail."

 

[Dukhat]

Nope, that was another universe altogether where humans were more violent and militant. It was always a separate physical universe IMO, and those events had nothing to do with what would have happened in the regular universe.

Ok, I'll concede this point.

If it wasn't for the Borg, Cochrane would have had first contact with the Vulcans, and things would have happened more or less the same, but the tech would have looked different, and the first ship would have been named something different, and some early ship models may have looked different.

However, I fail to see how things would have changed so drastically between DSC and TOS just because of a few relatively small differences 200 years before. Cochrane never even saw the Borg, he made his flight, and had first contact with the Vulcans, just like how history originally recorded it. How would anything past these events have changed things so radically?

 

[Phoenix219]

Ok, I'll concede this point.



However, I fail to see how things would have changed so drastically between DSC and TOS just because of a few relatively small differences 200 years before. Cochrane never even saw the Borg, he made his flight, and had first contact with the Vulcans, just like how history originally recorded it. How would anything past these events have changed things so radically?

Contamination by Riker and the Enterprise itself (causing the first ship to now be named Enterprise, possibly some aesthetics), plus the Borg Drone found in ENT (future tech begins being worked on by Section 31)..... There may be a couple points of divergence.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Or....

It’s the same timeline but with an entirely new aesthetic that’s not meant to be taken as anything literal.

I do understand though that Trek fans have been used to the visual look of Trek being treated as if it were a documentary, which is why there was so much concern over stuff like why Klingons looked different “in-universe” when for a long time there was never actually going to be an in-universe explanation, at least until fanboy writers took over ENT in its final season. For DISCO to drop that conceit is asking too much for some.

 

[F. King Daniel]

However, I fail to see how things would have changed so drastically between DSC and TOS just because of a few relatively small differences 200 years before. Cochrane never even saw the Borg, he made his flight, and had first contact with the Vulcans, just like how history originally recorded it. How would anything past these events have changed things so radically?

Were not people killed when the Borg attacked Montana? Any of them could have been important.

And then Enterprise killed a thousands-strong colony of aliens and then 7 million humans, neither of which were supposed to die. Oh yeah, and the NX-01 itself was supposed to have been destroyed in "Cold Front"!

Really, I'm done with in-universe explanations (really, Disco rebooted the 23rd century of Trek and that's all), but there's tons of evidence that Disco is a mangled, corrupted husk of a Prime Universe following on from FC and ENT.

 

[Dukhat]

Were not people killed when the Borg attacked Montana? Any of them could have been important.

Since this is the only example you give about something that took place during FC, I'll speak to it. The Borg shot at some people. I have no idea if anyone died or not.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Since this is the only example you give about something that took place during FC, I'll speak to it. The Borg shot at some people. I have no idea if anyone died or not.

Weren't they stepping over corpses when looking for Cochrane?

 

[Dukhat]

Weren't they stepping over corpses when looking for Cochrane?

Beats me. I haven't seen the movie in years. I don't remember that, but I'll take your word for it if that's what you saw.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

When they enter a bunker filled with bodies Crusher pronounces “they’re all dead”.

 

[Dukhat]

When they enter a bunker filled with bodies Crusher pronounces “they’re all dead”.

Thanks. I'm still dubious that, had they survived, that one or all of them would have ended up being responsible for upscaled ships and advanced technology 200 years later.

 

[Phoenix219]

If anything, they would have been responsible for the original designs and history, and a combination of different people contributing and the Borg drones left behind, lead to a more advanced / different 23rd century.

 

[Dukhat]

If anything, they would have been responsible for the original designs and history, and a combination of different people contributing and the Borg drones left behind, lead to a more advanced / different 23rd century.

How, exactly? They were just a bunch of downtrodden humans that were just hanging around Cochrane's camp.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Q did it all just to mess with Trek fans. Past the fourth wall is not beyond his jurisdiction.

 

[Phoenix219]

How, exactly? They were just a bunch of downtrodden humans that were just hanging around Cochrane's camp.

Butterfly effect. Someone they knew, or affected, or helped or hurt, or something their children did a la Captain Christopher..... could have changed all sorts of things in the future of spaceflight, especially since Cochran became the epicenter of the entire industry and they were people around Cochran. Most of it was probably the Borg drone, leading to changes between Enterprise and discovery, but at the very least I believe first contact entered the name Enterprise into popular legends century early. I also wouldn't be surprised if the actual configuration was discovered and streamlined quicker than in the original timeline.

 

[Dukhat]

Butterfly effect. Someone they knew, or affected, or helped or hurt, or something their children did a la Captain Christopher..... could have changed all sorts of things in the future of spaceflight, especially since Cochran became the epicenter of the entire industry and they were people around Cochran. Most of it was probably the Borg drone, leading to changes between Enterprise and discovery, but at the very least I believe first contact entered the name Enterprise into popular legends century early. I also wouldn't be surprised if the actual configuration was discovered and streamlined quicker than in the original timeline.

Yes...or they could have contributed absolutely nothing. There's no way to tell. And as far as the Borg drone is concerned, again, we have no idea if it was always there or not (predestination paradox).

 

[Phoenix219]

Yes...or they could have contributed absolutely nothing. There's no way to tell. And as far as the Borg drone is concerned, again, we have no idea if it was always there or not (predestination paradox).

I do not believe in predestination paradoxes. I believe in any and all cases, there is an original unseen timeline that starts it all, even if we never see it. To me, all a predestination paradox is, is proof of a very corrupted timeline rewritten and caught in a loop so many times that the origin and causes are lost, or an outside agent is behind the scenes.