A Lawyer Looks at The Measure of a Man
- Thread starter Mysterion
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That one is good, A Time to Kill, any contemporary American legal movie/show. Measure of a Man seemed to be more of a fun thought experiment and to liken it to Civil War era cases.
I'm a little late to join the party but I have just watched the video and I have found it quite interesting. He raised some good points that we had already touched in a previous discussion. Specifically, it was obvious Data was already considered de facto and de jure a sentient being because, well, in Star Trek universe computers don't attend Starfleet Academy and aren't appointed lieutenant. In the episode it is also mentioned that a committee had deliberated about Data's right to join the Academy. Still no one in the episode told to the Jag something like "Err, you know this matter was already discussed by a committee ? Why are you saying they are wrong, considering that it's evident you have no whatever knowledge about this subject..?"
This does not sound like a valid assumption at all. Nowhere in the episode or elsewhere is it established that Starfleet doesn't turn computers into Lieutenants. And indeed the very fact that a committee allowed Data to join without checking on his sentience establishes the opposite - that sentience is not an entry requirement.
At the conclusion of the episode, the judge steadfastly refuses to declare Data sentient. This does not spell the end of Data's Starfleet career, though - quite apparently because sentience does not matter, and never did.
Which is rather understandable, as no attendee of this court was able to come up with a definition of this quality; therefore, screening for it at entry exams is right out of the question!
Timo Saloniemi
At the conclusion of the episode, the judge steadfastly refuses to declare Data sentient. This does not spell the end of Data's Starfleet career, though - quite apparently because sentience does not matter, and never did.
Which is rather understandable, as no attendee of this court was able to come up with a definition of this quality; therefore, screening for it at entry exams is right out of the question!
Timo Saloniemi
Before the hearing, Data was treated exactly like a human being (including his right to leave Starfleet). Then the Jag ruled he was property of StarFleet, and then he had the freedom to choose.
So, what exactly convinced the Jag to rescind her ruling, because, while Picard's speech was particularly emotional, he added absolutely nothing: Data was still a machine. So, why the "Acts of Cumberland" shouldn't apply to him (it)?!?
Because the judge says so?
She's loath to create precedent, but here she is forced to. Quite possibly Data is the first piece of Starfleet property to verbalize a desire not to be that, allowing Louvois to declare the Acts not relevant to this case after all. Yet she precedes this decision by emphasizing that she's not addressing Data's metaphysical connotations, and then follows it by more of the same. So essentially, she's shunting the burden of further precedent-making to her successors, expressly limiting her own judgement to the "Is she SF property? No." bit.
It's her professional opinion that the Acts apply. She changes that opinion. She doesn't explain herself in either case, and thus probably will get away with it in both cases. And getting away is a good strategy here, considering how Data got away with it for more than a decade easily enough.
Timo Saloniemi
She's loath to create precedent, but here she is forced to. Quite possibly Data is the first piece of Starfleet property to verbalize a desire not to be that, allowing Louvois to declare the Acts not relevant to this case after all. Yet she precedes this decision by emphasizing that she's not addressing Data's metaphysical connotations, and then follows it by more of the same. So essentially, she's shunting the burden of further precedent-making to her successors, expressly limiting her own judgement to the "Is she SF property? No." bit.
It's her professional opinion that the Acts apply. She changes that opinion. She doesn't explain herself in either case, and thus probably will get away with it in both cases. And getting away is a good strategy here, considering how Data got away with it for more than a decade easily enough.
Timo Saloniemi
It's kind of interesting that about two years later, when Data was hiding information abut some xenophobic aliens to protect the crew, Picard told him Starfleet would strip him down to his wires if he didn't reveal what was going on.
What about prison or being discharged from Starfleet?
I get the impression that if Data showed emotions, they wouldn't have tried what they did, like the experiment thing, taking Lal, or taking him apart just because he's withholding information.
What about prison or being discharged from Starfleet?
I get the impression that if Data showed emotions, they wouldn't have tried what they did, like the experiment thing, taking Lal, or taking him apart just because he's withholding information.
In that case, Picard would just tell that he's going to rip Data a new one; have him softened up in the basement till he talks; generally use the expressions that normally go with flesh-and-blood underlings who are too confident about the protection they feel they enjoy. This is a case of Picard expressing appropriate emotion, after all, not of him outlining a concrete battle plan; there's a message he wants to convey, even if it requires bending grammar, regulations or (just possibly) a few limbs.
Whether Picard would actually torture or otherwise violate his own crew if need be is an interesting issue as such. He has access to telepaths for probing Riker if the XO goes weird like Data here; he can tell Crusher to use fancy potions, too. There are times where he holds back from using force of this sort, but those are cases of delicate political intrigue, such as with Worf and the dying Romulan. In contrast, Starfleet employees enjoy few rights as regards privacy anyway. It's not as if there would have been concerns or consequences about Spock's probing Valeris, either: the interrogation was only cut short due to the interrogator not having the pain tolerance for the mutually damaging act.
But that's just the concrete side of it. As said, Picard is passing on a sentiment, expecting Data to get the hint.
Timo Saloniemi
Whether Picard would actually torture or otherwise violate his own crew if need be is an interesting issue as such. He has access to telepaths for probing Riker if the XO goes weird like Data here; he can tell Crusher to use fancy potions, too. There are times where he holds back from using force of this sort, but those are cases of delicate political intrigue, such as with Worf and the dying Romulan. In contrast, Starfleet employees enjoy few rights as regards privacy anyway. It's not as if there would have been concerns or consequences about Spock's probing Valeris, either: the interrogation was only cut short due to the interrogator not having the pain tolerance for the mutually damaging act.
But that's just the concrete side of it. As said, Picard is passing on a sentiment, expecting Data to get the hint.
Timo Saloniemi
She says that "Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose" too. We don't usually say that a toaster has a freedom to toast, even if it's not our property. So in this contest, it's a quite important decision.
And this is one of the numerous reasons why she is, in my opinion, a bad Jag (and probably in bad faith too, like I said in the other thread).
She doesn't explain her decisions, she doesn't consult any expert on the matter, she decided that Data was a property of SF without even talking with him, she doesn't pospone the hearing (why the hurry??). Who the heck put her in that delicate position?
Ruling, summarily, against someone due to lack of staff is a pretty shotty thing to do.
"I have no staff and am forcing someone into an uncomfortable position because I have no staff, if things don't go perfect I declare the subject of this is ordered to potentially die because this other guy's career is really important to him.
"I have no staff and am forcing someone into an uncomfortable position because I have no staff, if things don't go perfect I declare the subject of this is ordered to potentially die because this other guy's career is really important to him.
Amen! Like I said, she is the bad guy of the episode.
Well, yes. Consider the setup. Bruce Maddox is a lone specialist in an important and unique field of study. Where does he choose to confront Data? On a distant, recently opened starbase that is the farthest thing from a plausible base of operations for Maddox. Obviously this is a setup to a specific end.
Among the victims would appear to be Admiral Nakamura, who is genuinely surprised that Louvois and Picard know each other. You can sort of see gears turning there when he realizes that he has been maneuvered into saying what he now has to say about the man he's expected to introduce to Picard...
Maddox would lack the legal know-how and derring-do to pull off what transpires. So Louvois must be the brains of the outfit here, even if Maddox is the instigator, the one who hedged his bets by approaching a known enemy of Picard for his legal needs, long in advance of the events. Its just that since Louvois isn't the prime motivator, she's entitled to turning from a baddie to a goodie as she pleases; she's not being blackmailed into doing what she does, but merely tempted.
Louvois is the one to do the maneuvering here. It's her who suggests that Data try resign and back himself in a corner. It's then her who suggests that Data is property, a sensible take in face of his cowardly attempts to dodge his Starfleet responsibilities by resigning and all. And that's it: case over, Maddox is happy, Louvois got her vengeance, an irrelevant toaster gets toasted while Picard seethes.
And then Picard demands a trial. Louvois gulps a couple of times, then sees the perfect opportunity to humiliate Picard further.
Only, the trial turns out to be an actual case, forcing Louvois to take a professional stance and ultimately even an actual interest. At which point she ceases to be a villain, in best Roddenberrian tradition.
(That she'd ultimately address the toaster as Lieutenant Commander Data is neither here nor there, though. To Louvois, Data always was a he, whilst to Maddox, Data was an it.)
Timo Saloniemi
Among the victims would appear to be Admiral Nakamura, who is genuinely surprised that Louvois and Picard know each other. You can sort of see gears turning there when he realizes that he has been maneuvered into saying what he now has to say about the man he's expected to introduce to Picard...
Maddox would lack the legal know-how and derring-do to pull off what transpires. So Louvois must be the brains of the outfit here, even if Maddox is the instigator, the one who hedged his bets by approaching a known enemy of Picard for his legal needs, long in advance of the events. Its just that since Louvois isn't the prime motivator, she's entitled to turning from a baddie to a goodie as she pleases; she's not being blackmailed into doing what she does, but merely tempted.
Louvois is the one to do the maneuvering here. It's her who suggests that Data try resign and back himself in a corner. It's then her who suggests that Data is property, a sensible take in face of his cowardly attempts to dodge his Starfleet responsibilities by resigning and all. And that's it: case over, Maddox is happy, Louvois got her vengeance, an irrelevant toaster gets toasted while Picard seethes.
And then Picard demands a trial. Louvois gulps a couple of times, then sees the perfect opportunity to humiliate Picard further.
Only, the trial turns out to be an actual case, forcing Louvois to take a professional stance and ultimately even an actual interest. At which point she ceases to be a villain, in best Roddenberrian tradition.
(That she'd ultimately address the toaster as Lieutenant Commander Data is neither here nor there, though. To Louvois, Data always was a he, whilst to Maddox, Data was an it.)
Timo Saloniemi
With Picard I wouldn't worry about that as we know he's too moral to threaten Data in that way. He respects Data as a sentient being.
What's somewhat disturbing is the idea that Starfleet would strip Data to his wires a couple of years after the court experience.
Or that there was no follow up as to whether Data was a sentient being that had rights as a Fed citizen.
All she said was that Data had the right to choose. I'm assuming she did mean Data had rights as a sentient being, but the way it was stated it kind of left the issue of whether Data was property, or had no rights out in the open.
There was no "Fed" version of the supreme court that took the issue up to solve it once and for all? There should have been like a dozen jag lawyers and civilian lawyers on each side filing objections and motions.
But if Picard is to be trusted, then his threat (which he did make, no ifs or buts about that) is to be taken as what it is, more a figure of speech than a battle plan.
On the other hand, Starfleet has every right to order its employers to die. If they refuse to follow this order, there may exist the option of Starfleet killing them nevertheless ("Turnabout Intruder" has the heroes argue about death penalty in connection with an alleged case of mutiny, but we don't get the exact specs), just like in the militaries of the real world - or then the option of Data's career otherwise suffering (he now has the right to retire, but this is a threat as much as "being stripped down to wires" is!).
Tying rights to sentience would be a complication Star Trek could do without. What about idiots, psychopaths or disabled folks? No legislation today touches upon sentience, because that would be utterly counterproductive.
Data's case was not about his rights as a citizen, but about his rights as a cog in the wheels of the military machine. A living human being might well have been caught in a likewise Kafkaesque nightmare if the drama called for that.
Not with this particular case, though - because Data is not particularly distinct from, say, Tellarites. The argument over whether inhuman entities have a soul or the right to human rights should have been had a million times over in the very earliest days of the Federation already. That is, assuming that the Federation found some reason to disagree with the solution reached by its cosmopolitan member cultures in ancient times already.
That there's no precedent to be applied in the Data case would seem to suggest that the UFP avoids like plague the nailing of the rights of all-new and different entities in general terms, and prefers to reserve the freedom to choose differently with Data, Ruk, Hugh, the EMH and Picard, instead of bunching them all up as "machine men".
Timo Saloniemi
I always felt the denouement of this was apparent from the start, of course had the characters recognized this there would be no episode.
Paraphrasing, Data is a machine like the ship's computer or phasers, thus physical property of Star Fleet to do with as they please. The argument is made that the computer cannot refuse orders. But since Data refuses to be dismantled he is obviously more than a mere machine.
Lt. Cmdr. Data ... the ship's computer does not have a rank, there is not Sgt. Phaser, the Enterprise itself has no rank; Star Fleet does not give ranks to machines. Star Fleet gave Data a rank, thus already considers Data more than a mere machine.
Paraphrasing, Data is a machine like the ship's computer or phasers, thus physical property of Star Fleet to do with as they please. The argument is made that the computer cannot refuse orders. But since Data refuses to be dismantled he is obviously more than a mere machine.
Lt. Cmdr. Data ... the ship's computer does not have a rank, there is not Sgt. Phaser, the Enterprise itself has no rank; Star Fleet does not give ranks to machines. Star Fleet gave Data a rank, thus already considers Data more than a mere machine.
Trying to argue that Data has rights and privileges on basis of being a Starfleet officer would be pretty futile, when the opposite side (including the presiding judge) already starts out with "Yes, he's obviously a Starfleet officer, but since he's a machine, too, he has squat". Yet Picard can't argue that Data is not a machine, either.
Perhaps becoming an officer is associated with the losing of many basic privileges, to stop these folks from abusing their position and the WMDs they carry on their hip holsters - and only on acknowledged citizens is this balanced out by innate humanoid rights or whatever.
Timo Saloniemi
Perhaps becoming an officer is associated with the losing of many basic privileges, to stop these folks from abusing their position and the WMDs they carry on their hip holsters - and only on acknowledged citizens is this balanced out by innate humanoid rights or whatever.
Timo Saloniemi
But by giving Data a rank Star Fleet has stated he is more than a machine, and therefore more than just property. Star Fleet would not tell Picard they are going to dismantle him to study his brain and find why he is a good starship captain, and I feel they have implicitly given Data the same consideration.
