Unpopular Trek opinions game

[Henoch]

The USA wasn't involved in the Eugenics Wars. That's why VOY's crew saw no evidence of it.

Exactly. A small nuclear exchange in the 1990's between India and Pakistan, or India and China could easily result in 30 million deaths with "whole populations bombed out". In the chaos, the secret eugenics program "supermen" escape and seize large territories in the region. US lead UN forces invade the region to restore order, and hunt down the now villainized "supermen" who get the blame for the nuclear exchange. All eugenic programs are banned by the UN.

 

[Greg Cox]

Exactly. A small nuclear exchange in the 1990's between India and Pakistan, or India and China could easily result in 30 million deaths with "whole populations bombed out". In the chaos, the secret eugenics program "supermen" escape and seize large territories in the region. US lead UN forces invade the region to restore order, and hunt down the now villainized "supermen" who get the blame for the nuclear exchange. All eugenic programs are banned by the UN.

Yep. As I like to point out, if you time-traveled to Los Angeles back in the 1940s, at the height of World War II, you wouldn't find yourself in the middle of some war-torn battlefield surrounded by wreckage and explosions on all sides. Even though WW II was raging all over the globe, there was no actual fighting or devastation in the continental USA. Sure, if you took the time to look for them, you'd find newspaper headlines about the War, maybe see some patriotic posters hyping War Bonds and such, but if you're just running around Los Angeles for a day or so trying to undo a time paradox, you're not going to see much evidence of the War in plain sight.

Same with the Eugenics Wars maybe. Just because it was being waged in Asia and India and elsewhere doesn't mean that Los Angeles is going to look like an apocalyptic war zone in the 1990s . . . .

 

[Nightdiamond]

The USA wasn't involved in the Eugenics Wars. That's why VOY's crew saw no evidence of it.

I've heard about that one too, but it strains credibility too much. Spock calls it a "world war" which automatically implies "everyone" was involved.

Nuclear weapons are probably being dropped all over the Mid East, Asia, and Africa. People and countries are being enslaved. U.N treaties and are probably being violated. American allies are probably being invaded.

All of this is going on, and Americans are going about as if it weren't even news worthy? Janeway doesn't say something like, "oh, this is when the Eugenics wars are happening? The scans from Voyager doesn't show any massive damage or military activity? They were right in the middle of it.

And then-- the augments were defeated by non engineered humans. But who are the only non engineered powers left that are capable of defeating them if people like Khan controlled nearly half the planet?

Two much mental gymnastics to explain this. It was a retcon of disaster porn.

Plus they keep insisting in every series that Vulcans have perfect memories. They even say that on DS9, even though they hate Vulcans in that series. One, criminal, one asshole and then a serial killer, all Vulcans!! Yet even they say that Vulcans have perfect memories. Spock would never make a mistake like that. No way!!!

True, I've seen scenes where Spock does exact calculations down to the decimal. The eugenics discussion scene reads more like Spock fingered it, and McCoy pinpointed the exact name for it.

 

[Henoch]

And then-- the augments were defeated by non engineered humans. But who are the only non engineered powers left that are capable of defeating them if people like Khan controlled nearly half the planet?

SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
KIRK: Well, they were hardly supermen. They were aggressive, arrogant. They began to battle among themselves.​

So, the Eugenics War spanned over 40 nations. Sounds very world war-ish to me. Their defeat was helped by their own infighting. By the way, even if there was 30 million dead over 40 nations, that's not even one million a nation, so, the dead rate seems sort of low. Maybe only a few cities got nuked to wipe out the ruling governments, so the supermen tyrants could take over (circa 1993).

 

[Prax]

Voyager does acknowledge the Eugenics war(s?) Rain Robinson has a model of the Botany Bay in her office, as well as a picture of its launch. So the events have still happened. If they wanted to go further, they could have created a newspaper headline that we'd see on a table or something. I don't think any dialogue was necessary.

 

[Henoch]

Memory Alpha does a fairly good job covering the Eugenics Wars: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Eugenics_Wars

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I have a feeling that the official casualty numbers of the Eugenics Wars were very likely fudged. There were reportedly no massacres under Khan's rule, but look at how quickly he was ready to asphyxiate everyone on the bridge as soon as they crossed him in "Space Seed." That's a guy who definitely killed more than his share of people. And there's also the fact that Earth's governments were able to keep the disappearance of some 80 or 90 supermen a secret at the end of the war.

 

[Discofan]

I have a feeling that the official casualty numbers of the Eugenics Wars were very likely fudged. There were reportedly no massacres under Khan's rule, but look at how quickly he was ready to asphyxiate everyone on the bridge as soon as they crossed him in "Space Seed." That's a guy who definitely killed more than his share of people. And there's also the fact that Earth's governments were able to keep the disappearance of some 80 or 90 supermen a secret at the end of the war.

Khan was a ruthless murdering sob. If given a chance he would have exterminated humankind in its entirety.

 

[PSGarak]

I have a feeling that the official casualty numbers of the Eugenics Wars were very likely fudged. There were reportedly no massacres under Khan's rule, but look at how quickly he was ready to asphyxiate everyone on the bridge as soon as they crossed him in "Space Seed." That's a guy who definitely killed more than his share of people. And there's also the fact that Earth's governments were able to keep the disappearance of some 80 or 90 supermen a secret at the end of the war.

Khan was ruthless, but also practical. I think there's a big difference between being in a survival situation with a very specific set of goals versus being in a position of having power over large swaths of territory. Before resorting to trying to gas everyone, he tried to charm and beguile. He only became violent when it became clear it was the least risky way to his goal. He enjoyed being manipulative, and he enjoyed being admired. If he could achieve both of those goals without violence, I think it would have fed his ego a great deal more than having to quell uprisings or make ham-fisted power plays against people he viewed as inferior.

Khan was a ruthless murdering sob. If given a chance he would have exterminated humankind in its entirety.

I didn't see that in his characterization at all. He wasn't a psychopath just for the sake of murdering. He saw the people around him as tools for his use. If you murder everyone, who is going to grow the food, make your clothes, keep the power on, etc? Ruthless, yes, and vindictive when crossed. Out of control killer just for the sake of it? We never saw that.

 

[Captain_Oblivious]

My "unpopular opinion" about trek?

I think "The Inner Light" is an awful episode that should never have been made. I found it the most boring episode of all and just can't watch it without falling asleep.

 

[Discofan]

Khan was ruthless, but also practical. I think there's a big difference between being in a survival situation with a very specific set of goals versus being in a position of having power over large swaths of territory. Before resorting to trying to gas everyone, he tried to charm and beguile. He only became violent when it became clear it was the least risky way to his goal. He enjoyed being manipulative, and he enjoyed being admired. If he could achieve both of those goals without violence, I think it would have fed his ego a great deal more than having to quell uprisings or make ham-fisted power plays against people he viewed as inferior.



I didn't see that in his characterization at all. He wasn't a psychopath just for the sake of murdering. He saw the people around him as tools for his use. If you murder everyone, who is going to grow the food, make your clothes, keep the power on, etc? Ruthless, yes, and vindictive when crossed. Out of control killer just for the sake of it? We never saw that.

His ultimate goal was to replace humankind with his kind, that implies extermination. In a way, that's how the different human species treated each other for millions of years before one prevailed, ours, IE homo-sapiens, according to archeologists, our last victims were the Neanderthals. The difference is that maybe our ancestors weren't as systematic and steadily ruthless as Khan would have been, if given a chance, but eventually the Neanderthal went extinct and that's in large part because of us.

 

[PSGarak]

His ultimate goal was to replace humankind with his kind, that implies extermination. In a way, that's how the different human species treated each other for millions of years before one prevailed, ours, IE homo-sapiens, according to archeologists, our last victims were the Neanderthals. The difference is that maybe our ancestors weren't as systematic and steadily ruthless as Khan would have been, if given a chance, but eventually the Neanderthal went extinct and that's in large part because of us.

The thing is that according to canon, he had that chance and didn't take it. It was a significantly different enough approach from the other augments of the time that Kirk not only knew about it but saw fit to comment on it in the episode. Eventually wanting mankind elevated to what he saw as a superior level =/= ruthlessly killing everyone in sight or an extermination pogrom. Make no mistake. I am not characterizing Khan as some squishy bleeding heart by any means. However, there are several degrees between that and murderous psychopath. He fell somewhere well between.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

"world war" which automatically implies "everyone" was involved.

Not really, no.

I'm fairly sure that World Wars I and II were already going on well before the USA entered the fray. And even up until the end, neither war involved absolutely every nation on Earth.

As for Trek's WW III: Perhaps there is an ongoing debate over what to call it. Meaning, there are some who refer to the Eugenics Wars as WW III, and the war in 2053 as WW IV. And also some who do not.

Indeed, there are some even today who believe that World War III has already been fought - the Cold War.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Not really, no.
I'm fairly sure that World Wars I and II were already going on well before the USA entered the fray. And even up until the end, neither war involved absolutely every nation on Earth.
As for Trek's WW III: Perhaps there is an ongoing debate over what to call it. Meaning, there are some who refer to the Eugenics Wars as WW III, and the war in 2053 as WW IV. And also some who do not.
Indeed, there are some even today who believe that World War III has already been fought - the Cold War.

I just tend to go along with the context of the TOS dialog. "Whole populations bombed out', "last so called world war" "war to end tyranny" "records of that era were scant" "Earth was on the verge of a dark ages" all of it suggests Trek meant a major, apocalyptic world war that occurred before humanity evolved into what they were.
Outside the universe, it would just be hard to believe the US would stay out and go one as if nothing happened.
What's even stranger is that there appears to be American English speaking people among Khan's crew.

 

[Prax]

What's even stranger is that there appears to be American English speaking people among Khan's crew.

The American government engineered(pun not intended) Khan's rise to power to slow down the growing economic and military threat in the East.

If you think about it, the story of Khan and the other "superhumans" is pretty implausible without a major power being responsible for funding and instituting it.

 

[Henoch]

I just tend to go along with the context of the TOS dialog. "Whole populations bombed out', "last so called world war" "war to end tyranny" "records of that era were scant" "Earth was on the verge of a dark ages" all of it suggests Trek meant a major, apocalyptic world war that occurred before humanity evolved into what they were.
Outside the universe, it would just be hard to believe the US would stay out and go one as if nothing happened.
What's even stranger is that there appears to be American English speaking people among Khan's crew.

I see the US and possible other major powers taken out of the equation by EMP nukes which fried the power grid and destroyed most of the electronic stored data. It would take a period of few years to rebuild their systems, by then, Khan and gang would have been too entrenched to remove them. Good thing that the augments fought each other giving the opening for the allies to exploit and eventually beat them.

 

[Prax]

Since bombing cities is like a US/UK thing, there's a good chance they/NATO were the ones doing the bombing here as well.

 

[Captain_Oblivious]

Since bombing cities is like a US/UK thing, there's a good chance they/NATO were the ones doing the bombing here as well.

Oooof, now that's a spicy comment you've got there.

The Russians, Soviets, Koreans, Chinese, Germans, of course none of those bombed cities, ohhh *absolutely not*.

 

[Prax]

They weren't as good at it, that's for sure

 

[Discofan]

The Eugenics Wars are of course totally implausible but when it comes to ST that's only one implausible thing among many. I mean once geniuses like Khan et al. get hold of the highest power, it's hard to imagine what could dislodge them. If bozos like Ceausescu or Bocassa managed to keep a firm grip on their countries for so long while wasting resources and stealing the rest, the mind boggles when you think what geniuses could have done in their place! They would have remained in place for centuries!