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The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

Am I correct in surmising that one reason some people are disappointed with Luke as portrayed in this film is that they feel that, as Luke learned Vader could be redeemed, he should never, ever assume that anyone else may be beyond the point of redemption?

Let me put this more clearly: Are some people disappointed with Luke because they feel he learned a lesson once, and that it should therefore never be an issue for him again?

It would be nice to think that people never repeat their own mistakes.
 
DonIago said:
It would be nice to think that people never repeat their own mistakes.
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It would be nice if franchises attempted new plots once in a while, instead of rehashing the glory days because that's what's easiest and least challenging to a nostalgia-hungry mass market.
 
Sci-fi fan said:
You are ignored because you parrot a conspiracy theory.
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It's not a conspiracy theory; it's 100% confirmed fact.

https://screenrant.com/force-awakens-concept-art-luke-retcon-last-jedi/

Therefore:

485.jpg
 
Gaith said:
It would be nice if franchises attempted new plots once in a while, instead of rehashing the glory days because that's what's easiest and least challenging to a nostalgia-hungry mass market.
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Wait, you're complaining about a lack of new plots in a film series where "blow up the Death Star" was used in both the first and third movies?
 
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EnderAKH said:
Wait, you're complaining about a lack of new plots in a film series where blow up the Death Star was used in both the first and third movies?
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If TLJ had been a whole sale rip off of ESB then they would have complained about that too.

There is no winning here.
 
EnderAKH said:
Wait, you're complaining about a lack of new plots in a film series where blow up the Death Star was used in both the first and third movies?
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Yeah. The more sequels are produced, the more originality I expect. So, Episode 7 should have been less like ANH than RotJ; instead, it was more so.

fireproof78 said:
If TLJ had been a whole sale rip off of ESB then they would have complained about that too.
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It was way too much of an ESB ripoff for my tastes.

fireproof78 said:
There is no winning here.
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Bullshit. Write a new story, with a whole new villain - gasp, maybe not even a Sith! Timothy Zahn did it decades ago, and for a fraction of the budget paid to the ST screenwriters, I'm sure.

DigificWriter said:
There's nothing narratively wrong with Anakin/Darth Vader having been Threepio's "Maker".
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Gaith said:
Bullshit. Write a new story, with a whole new villain - gasp, maybe not even a Sith! Timothy Zahn did it decades ago, and for a fraction of the budget paid to the ST screenwriters, I'm sure.
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Nope. He had way more freedom, was seen by fewer people, and didn't carry the burden of expectations like the films do.

Lucas tried something new and got burned for it. So, no, I don't expect a "new story" from companies who fear backlash. The fact that Johnson did what he did surprises me to no end, and I'm grateful for it. In a similar way I am grateful to Lucas as well despite my dislike of TPM.

Gaith said:
So, Episode 7 should have been less like ANH than RotJ; instead, it was more so.
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Companies will not take the risk.
 
fireproof78 said:
Nope. He had way more freedom, was seen by fewer people, and didn't carry the burden of expectations like the films do. [...] Companies will not take the risk.
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If Disney's Marvel Studios can make beloved characters out of talking raccoons and trees, Disney's Lucasfilm should be able to make successful Star Wars movie that's not pandering OT recycling.

I don't know about you, but I don't decide whether a movie is artistically satisfying based on how safe a business decision it was for the Disney corporation.

fireproof78 said:
Lucas tried something new and got burned for it.
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Oh, somebody find and play the world's smallest violin. Most films, even many great ones, lose money, and Lucas made three shitty new films that sold gobs of toys, made tons of bank, and have millions of passionate defenders. Most artists can only dream of getting burned like that.

If you want soulless, corporate filmmaking, both TFA and TLJ have you covered. One is just more selective in its cynical pandering than the other.
 
And people are once again ignoring facts.

JJ Abrams didn't intentionally model The Force Awakens after A New Hope because of some "corporate edict" or " cash-grab nostalgia play"; he and his co-writer Lawrence Kasdan used TFA as a form of personal "wish fulfillment" by attempting to recreate their own personal feelings of wonderment and awe that were engendered by seeing A New Hope as young men without truly comprehending the deeper meaning and intent behind Lucas' story choices as presented in that film.
 
Gaith said:
I don't know about you, but I don't decide whether a movie is artistically satisfying based on how safe a business decision it was for the Disney corporation.
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Nope. I based that on how entertaining it is. TLJ was fantastically entertaining. So, it wins.

I understand Disney's point of view as far as business decisions. I love TLJ for entertainment reasons.
Gaith said:
Oh, somebody find and play the world's smallest violin. Most films, even many great ones, lose money, and Lucas made three shitty new films that sold gobs of toys, made tons of bank, and have millions of passionate defenders. Most artists can only dream of getting burned like that.
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The lack of empathy here is staggering. The level of hate flung out Lucas forced him into retirement. I don't care about money in this context. We are talking about another human being's suffering. You'll excuse me if I find this attitude rather odd, to say the least.
 
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Sci-fi fan said:
The entire point is that Luke HAS ALREADY REACHED A POINT THAT HE HAS PROVEN EVEN THE MOST EVIL PERSON CAN BE REDEEMED and you practically make a strawman argument by saying "LALALALALA, HE WASN'T LIKE THAT IN THE PAST".
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Where in canon does it say that Anakin was the most evil person. The whole point of his story arc was that he was evil but within the realms of redemption. There's no indication that Palpatine could ever have been redeemed, so in my mind that makes him more evil than Anakin. And we don't know what Luke saw that made him consider killing Ben. It's quite possible that Ben has the potential to become far more evil and do more damage than either Anakin and Palpatine combined. The only thing we know for sure is that something Luke saw made him consider that Ben should be stopped before it could happen. And he reconsidered that almost immediately. If Ben hadn't woken up at that moment the rest of the story might never have occurred. Or Luke may have been proved right and a far better trained Ben might have turned evil at a later time.
 
fireproof78 said:
The lack of empathy here is staggering. The level of hate flung out Lucas forced him into retirement.
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Nope. In possession of wealth, access to counseling and the ability to hire staff to insulate himself from any outside trollery, plus personal and artistic freedom the likes of which 99.99% of humanity can only dream of, he chose to retire. And, at the time of the Disney sale, the Clone Wars series he was directly contributing to was being embraced by and earning strong reviews from a large chunk of the fandom.
 
Sci-fi fan said:
strawman argument by saying "LALALALALA, HE WASN'T LIKE THAT IN THE PAST".
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It's not a strawman argument, it's well supported by what we see of Luke's actions on screen.

Gavin70 said:
Where in canon does it say that Anakin was the most evil person.
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I'd probably argue that what made Anakin / Vader such an interesting character was that he wasn't outright evil. He'd repressed the last few scraps of empathy and decency that he possessed, because he felt like he had no other option. Listen to the way he delivers the line in ROTJ, "It is too late for me", the regret is palpable. Also the look on his face once the helmet comes off and experiences the catharsis of finally letting it all go.
 
Gaith said:
Nope. In possession of wealth, access to counseling and the ability to hire staff to insulate himself from any outside trollery, plus personal and artistic freedom the likes of which 99.99% of humanity can only dream of, he chose to retire. And, at the time of the Disney sale, the Clone Wars series he was directly contributing to was being embraced by and earning strong reviews from a large chunk of the fandom.
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Ah, yes, money. The cure-all...:sigh:

I think this conversation is over.
 
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