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The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

But I see nothing hypocritical in wanting to see a franchise continue.
That's a strawman argument. I didn't say it's hypocritical to want something to continue, I implied it's hypocritical when some people attack others as "doing harm to the franchise because they are fixated to an old story" when the accusers destroy a story by insisting it's good to rewrite it. If they truly want "new" they should stop trying to rewrite an old story and support a new franchise.

The Luke Skywalker rewrite was a total disgrace. He went from someone insisting the most evil and dangerous person in the Galaxy should be redeemed, to someone that almost murdered a child that had a chance of being evil

Be logical. When you write for a saga, write it in a way that makes sense compared to the rest of the story, and if you truly want something different that rewrites it that drastically, promote new franchises.
 
^ You seem to think you're entitled to my time and original thoughts. You are not.

If you are not going to backup your claims with your own words, than you have no claims and are your original thoughts are not worth much time since you aren't providing any yourself, just copying and pasting someone else's crap.

If you are going to make a claim, back it with your own words and work. Otherwise its unoriginal and borderline plagiarism as an argument. Which holds no value on its own and would gain you a failing grade in school if your made it your paper, and would get you a lawsuit if you tried to publish it for money.
 
That's a strawman argument. I didn't say it's hypocritical to want something to continue, I implied it's hypocritical when some people attack others as "doing harm to the franchise because they are fixated to an old story" when the accusers destroy a story by insisting it's good to rewrite it. If they truly want "new" they should stop trying to rewrite an old story and support a new franchise.

The Luke Skywalker rewrite was a total disgrace. He went from someone insisting the most evil and dangerous person in the Galaxy should be redeemed, to someone that almost murdered a child that had a chance of being evil

Be logical. When you write for a saga, write it in a way that makes sense compared to the rest of the story, and if you truly want something different that rewrites it that drastically, promote new franchises.

And you continue to gatekeep. And you do so poorly, repeating the exact same points in at least four posts in this thread. Considering the fact that you can't respond to points outside of that, I see no reason to continue this debate.
 
I nice summary on why the rewrite of the Luke Skywalker character was a total disgrace:

[Skip to 17:31]

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> YOU GATEKEEP AND HARM STAR WARS!!!11
What a spectacular display of hypocrisy. If you truly want to help a franchise, you want its story to make sense, not turn the true positive heart of the franchise to a murderous fool without even explaining that drastic change. He was being constantly reminded Anakin was the most evil person in the Galacy and he insisted he can be redeemed and now only the suspicion a child could turn evil made him almost murder it? Get out of here.

If you truly want to help Star Wars you want the saga to make sense. If you truly want new stories, promote new franchises.

When they rewrite it in such a nonsensical way they seem they only care for a money grab. Prove those ideas on a new saga.
 
I nice summary on why the rewrite of the Luke Skywalker character was a total disgrace:

[Skip to 17:31]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

> YOU GATEKEEP AND HARM STAR WARS!!!11
What a spectacular display of hypocrisy. If you truly want to help a franchise, you want its story to make sense, not turn the true positive heart of the franchise to a murderous fool without even explaining that drastic change. He was being constantly reminded Anakin was the most evil person in the Galacy and he insisted he can be redeemed and now only the suspicion a child could turn evil made him almost murder it? Get out of here.

If you truly want to help Star Wars you want the saga to make sense. If you truly want new stories, promote new franchises.

When they rewrite it in such a nonsensical way they seem they only care for a money grab. Prove those ideas on a new saga.

You don't seem to get the fact that people have the right to have differing opinions than you. I have admitted as such but I choose to disagree with yours. I'm not saying you can't hate The Last Jedi with every fiber of your being. Go ahead! Bully for you! I'm saying that others have the right to feel the way they want to about it. I don't understand why that is so hard to comprehend.
 
It's Star Wars. What would it take to keep you from the theater for a Star Wars movie? Not something that anyone would say in my case, that's for sure. Thus, box office for such a movie doesn't have much to do with quality.

To be fair, it does have a lot to do with popularity, though. Yes, really disliked movies can still open big but then they can and do drop off massively after opening week.

So it making a lot of money over time, despite of there being a lot of complaints, suggests that, as with the prequels, a lot of people thought it was at least OK, some loved it, some hated it.
 
Personally I liked seeing that Luke had grown up (or if you prefer, grown old) and was no longer the character we saw at the end of RotJ, and given how prone to brooding he pretty much always was, it doesn't surprise me that after his mistake with Kylo Ren that he'd go into self-imposed exile, though I imagine that if they'd ever had the time to talk about it, Leia might have chewed him out for not leaving a forwarding address.

As for Luke coming close to killing Kylo...he's Force-sensitive, something none of us can relate to, and his senses were telling him that the kid could grow up to be the next Big Bad. Luke must have been well-versed in the evil that his father had committed by this point in time, so can you really blame him for having a moment where he almost gave into his worst impulses?

And to be sure, he didn't actually give into his worst impulses, he just came close to doing so.

You know, like how he came close to killing Vader.

Unfortunately, Kylo chose that moment to wake up. Oops.
 
I didn't attack you. Also you have provided zero arguments so you have zero rights to pretend to be right.
I didn't attack you. So, please don't be defensive. I have argued over the TLJ since it came out. I am allowed to have my opinion, just as you. I don't need to "prove" myself to anyone. This is a discussion board, not a moral choice, so right and wrong don't apply.
The fact of the matter is Luke Skywalker was the very heart of the franchise. He was being pressured by multiple people (including Anakin) to give up on Anakin and he was the very reason the saga had a conclusion because of that.
He was also pressured to carry forward the Jedi way. To avoid making the same mistakes as the past that led to Anakin becoming Anakin. The fact of the matter is, Luke can change, as people often do in real life. He saw in Ben the darkness growing, and like the Jedi who trained him, reacted in a moment. He then hesitated, and Ben then saw that Luke knew what was inside and reacted.

There is a lot going on there, and it's not a simple as "Luke would never!!!" Actually, there is a lot to Luke's character, including the ability to be wrong, to be impulsive, to make mistakes.
Turning him into a character that gives up on a child just because of a suspicion he would turn dark is absolute nonsense and a disgrace at writing. It would make remote sense if he had a severe and clinical physiological reason but he didn't.
But, it wasn't suspicion. Ben knew what Luke saw. There was darkness there.

Also, Luke didn't kill Ben. He had an impulse, a brief moment, then saw his nephew and not the darkness.
Making nonsense from an old franchise harms both the franchise and the movie industry in general.
This argument doesn't make any sense. What harm has been done, exactly? As I and others have argued the ST is still utilizing the same mythological tropes that Star Wars started with. TLJ is no different.
 
When they rewrite it in such a nonsensical way they seem they only care for a money grab. Prove those ideas on a new saga.

Problem is that you don’t seem to understand that your opinion is exactly that, an opinion. With lots of other people having their own opinions on the material. I like The Last Jedi, not perfect, but entertaining and I liked the turn that Luke took in it. :shrug:

*I am someone who saw the original in the theater.
 
To be fair, it does have a lot to do with popularity, though. Yes, really disliked movies can still open big but then they can and do drop off massively after opening week.

So it making a lot of money over time, despite of there being a lot of complaints, suggests that, as with the prequels, a lot of people thought it was at least OK, some loved it, some hated it.

Absolutely! Let's compare the first five weeks at the box office of three movies: The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi and Endgame.

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TFA was a cultural event -- the first time that Han, Luke and Leia would grace the screen in over thirty years. Its box office success was pretty much guaranteed. It was also pretty certain that TLJ would not do as well as TFA for those reasons. But, with Luke Skywalker's history being a big part of TLJ, it shouldn't have done too bad. Endgame? Also a huge cinematic event -- the culmination of a decade of storytelling in an unprecedented way -- the 22nd film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe! It was going to do gangbusters. And boy, did it.

Now, overall, there is no doubt that TLJ did the worst financially out of all three of these films. I can't deny that for a second. BUT, the more interesting number is the percentage drops, particularly from week one to week two. Now, I don't typically cite Wikipedia directly but in this case, the source they're using is a book, so, here we are...

During a film's theatrical run, its box office performance generally declines from weekend to weekend. In addition to the film's opening-weekend gross, the percentage of the change between the opening weekend and the second weekend is used as a gauge for a film's commercial success. Assuming that the number of theaters stays the same, a normal drop in box office gross from the first weekend to the second would be 40%. A drop of greater than 60% indicates a weak future performance.

Based upon that point alone, TFA would be doing great, TLJ about average and Endgame would be considered a flop. A 60% dropoff! Wow! But I don't know anyone in their right mind who would consider Endgame a flop. It just became the highest box office grosser of all time (that, of course, does not include inflation). But if you're going to look at it percentagewise, those first three weeks comparing Endgame to TLJ? Damn. TLJ maintains more of its audience. By quite a bit.

People keep suggesting that audiences, regardless if they're casual fans are going to keep going to TLJ just because its Star Wars and the "it can't be that bad-- oh wait, I was wrong, it IS that bad" mentality comes into play. But I don't buy it. Not for a second. A movie doesn't maintain that much audience if its just because of curiosity. Word of mouth plays a huge part and one cannot deny that on the internet, with the hardcore fans, there was a lot of dissension about TLJ. But its really impossible to tell how much that plays into the nonvocal fans. Most people saw it, said "I loved it!" or "that was an entertaining way to spend a few hours" or "that was okay" or "I don't know if I'm going to see the next one" and moved on with their life. Because they're not fanatic about it like us. They have other interests and things that are important to them.
 
If your response to queries about what is so egregious about TLJ is to post videos, you're not really making an argument.

It's a cop-out that signals that you haven't actually given what you're trying to say any real thought and are just "joining a herd".
 
In my opinion TLJ is the worst Star Wars movie made, because of the dissapointing TFA and TLJ my friends and I are going to skip EP 9
My wife likes the new movies and she will go to EP 9 with a friend, and that is ok.
Because they are only movies.
And mostly I like people who have the opposite opinions in movie or politics because it shows the other perpective
 
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In my opinion TLJ is the worst Star Wars movie made, because of the dissapointing TFA and TLJ my friends and I are going to skip EP 9

Even if I hated the last two Skywalker movies, there's no way I wouldn't be going to The Rise of Skywalker. Been watching this stuff for forty-plus years, want to see the finale on the big screen with other fans.
 
This movie is hated by, well, the 100% of people who hate it.

And I don't really care about these people's opinions because, like I already said, If someone is really hating some products of modern popular culture fiction, well, this someone should seek out professional help like, immediately.
I quote myself because I believe that's relevant now more than ever...
 
The Luke Skywalker rewrite was a total disgrace. He went from someone insisting the most evil and dangerous person in the Galaxy should be redeemed, to someone that almost murdered a child that had a chance of being evil

He went from being someone who came within a hair's breadth of murdering his father only to pull back at the last second when he realises what he's about to do, to someone who came within a hair's breadth of murdering his nephewonly to pull back at the last second when he realises what he's about to do.

Nothing inconsistent there at all.
 
He went from being someone who came within a hair's breadth of murdering his father only to pull back at the last second when he realises what he's about to do, to someone who came within a hair's breadth of murdering his nephewonly to pull back at the last second when he realises what he's about to do.

Nothing inconsistent there at all.
Well put.
 
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