Yes. That scene gets me every time.
Lessons to be learned from the Kelvin Universe Films
- Thread starter The Overlord
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@Malaika reading your thoughts on khan here has been really pleasant because you're reminding me (lover and frequent defender of star trek into darkness), that no it's not really fair to boil his motivation down to "another guy out for revenge" as has been stated numerous times here and on film reporting sites, and something i personally even forget. neither of the villains in into darkness' motivation is revenge and both have very clear goals where krall's goals were a lot murkier.
Good Idea: Comic Book prequels that flesh out each movie for the real fans.
Bad Idea: Characters that have zero depth if you haven't read said comics.
Good Idea: AU versions of well-known events in the Prime Universe
Bad Idea: Doing nothing else
Good Idea: Making the AU crew distinct versions of the characters from their TOS counterparts.
Bad Idea: Not making a point to show that character *growth*.
Good Idea: Making the movies fun and exciting, that work as movies, not extra expensive TV shows
Bad Idea: Not giving the audience a chance to work their brains in addition to their eyes.
Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of the JJ movies, but there are some areas where the next movie could look and see what NOT to do. Personally, I wonder if the biggest lesson of the JJ movies vs. Discovery is that maybe Star Trek JUST WORKS BETTER as a TV show, and that's where it should go from here on out.
Bad Idea: Characters that have zero depth if you haven't read said comics.
Good Idea: AU versions of well-known events in the Prime Universe
Bad Idea: Doing nothing else
Good Idea: Making the AU crew distinct versions of the characters from their TOS counterparts.
Bad Idea: Not making a point to show that character *growth*.
Good Idea: Making the movies fun and exciting, that work as movies, not extra expensive TV shows
Bad Idea: Not giving the audience a chance to work their brains in addition to their eyes.
Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of the JJ movies, but there are some areas where the next movie could look and see what NOT to do. Personally, I wonder if the biggest lesson of the JJ movies vs. Discovery is that maybe Star Trek JUST WORKS BETTER as a TV show, and that's where it should go from here on out.
is it your opinion that discovery is better than the kelvin films?
that's been the common wisdom since the abrams films began: "star trek belongs on television, is weaker on the big screen". but even with discovery's movie-level production values and cinematic story, i personally don't believe it has lived up to the quality of the three reboot films in terms of character, tone, or story. but obviously it comes down to personal taste, so i'm curious to hear your thoughts.
Personally-speaking, and as someone who enjoys Discovery on tv - I’m more excited about the prospect of another Kelvinverse Star Trek movie - which is all-the-more bittersweet considering a fourth Kelvinverse movie may never eventuate...
Personally, I think that common wisdom still holds true.
Star Trek really works better as a tv show. Not so much as a movie. At least not a generic action movie.
The problem though, is that DIS really tries to be a 10 hour long movie. And it's as mediocre-to-awful as most recent Star Trek (action) movies have been.
The "true" Star Trek - the one that "works better on tv" - currently lives on in the form of the Short Treks, and the few odd DIS episodes that are standalone ("magic", the Saru one, etc.).
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You lost me right here.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that.
The first thing that popped into my mind was, "Wait...does that mean TMP and TWOK are not 'true' Trek?"
Because that's the logical conclusion to that assertion.
This should be stickied in every forum of every fan oriented discussion board of every type.
It would be nice.
The only true Trek is 2009. Fight me.
It is my opinion that Discovery's format is better suited for the kinds of stories that work best for Trek. So yes, in that sense, Discovery is "better". I liked the stories of the JJ movies, but I felt that the story-telling was rushed and a bit shallow... again, a fault of the format, not the concept. How much can you do if you only have six hours over the course of seven years?
Would I like more JJ movies? Absolutely. But in a world where we can't make every project, I can see why it wouldn't make the cut.
Is that a fair answer?
There's still huge money being made off the Kelvin Universe. Star Trek: Fleet Command has made $100 million so far
absolutely fair.
you're not wrong about the movies, i just don't see discovery succeeding where the movies fail, even with more time to explore its characters and tell its stories. for me the movies have one big advantage over discovery: heart. there's near instant pathos in star trek 2009's opening scene that continues to be unmatched in two years of star trek: discovery, to say nothing of the rest of the first film and the following two.
Really? Interesting. Because for me, both ST09 and DIS are pretty much identical in this regard. I personally don't think ST09 had any more "heart" than DIS. I actually blame it for starting this overly soap-y story telling format in Star Trek. Like, we had emotional sacrifices in Star Trek very much since the beginning. But it was ST09 that started to frame these scenes like soap operas, with long, drawn out crying speeches, dramatic time extensions, zoom-ins on people crying or fighting tears. In this regard, I see George Kirk's sacrifice (or Spock loosing his mother) emotionally very similar to a lot of these Burnham-speeches about Tyler/Spock/her mother/whatever (or just recently the Pike-Cornwell scene), where one character is essentially staring next to the camera, fighting tears and monologuing a whole lot. Somehow neither ST09 nor DIS ever got me in this regard.
I think ST09 got a bit better away, because those scenes where better spaced out and fewer over a shorter run-time, and being a movie it had generally a faster pace, so the repetition wasn't that noticeable. But overall? I think they are VERY similar in their framing (especially compared to "emotional scenes" in other genre tv, like GoT, Stranger Things and such).
I love the emotions of all these scenes.
I can see that perspective. I'm willing to give Discovery more time to build, because it HAS more time to build. As much as I liked the "heart" you mentioned from the movies... it felt a little too paint-by-numbers. On one hand, you couldn't use the TV show as background info, because it was a new timeline... on the other hand, you HAD to use it as a kind of character-building shorthand, because the writers were using it as such. I felt like we had to have it both ways.
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