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Why Doctor Who is a MESS

The reason it was a mess, if indeed it was a mess, was because it’s a new team finding its feet and trying something new. Very few new Doctors gel immediately but they never over stay their welcome.

I’ve not enjoyed the latest series as much as previous ones, but they’ve all had their doozies.
 
The reason it was a mess, if indeed it was a mess, was because it’s a new team finding its feet and trying something new. Very few new Doctors gel immediately but they never over stay their welcome.

I’ve not enjoyed the latest series as much as previous ones, but they’ve all had their doozies.

New teams have found their feet before, with a lot less ‘experience’ than Chibnall, and less of a mess than this. This feels like how fans who don’t like it describe the Nathan Turner Years. Which raises the spectre of purely being a matter of individual taste, and the possibility that oh my god we are all Chibnall now.

But I don’t think it’s that at all.
I think there are core problems that will need a bit of sorting out. Retool the doctor a bit, change that awful Tardis set a bit, and do something to sort out the companions a bit. Do something BIG in a story to give us something we can get our teeth into.
 
The reason it was a mess, if indeed it was a mess, was because it’s a new team finding its feet and trying something new. Very few new Doctors gel immediately but they never over stay their welcome.

I’ve not enjoyed the latest series as much as previous ones, but they’ve all had their doozies.

New teams have found their feet before, with a lot less ‘experience’ than Chibnall, and less of a mess than this.
Perhaps you hit the nail on the head here. I think this is the most important point we can make about that video. The major flaw in the video is the final conclusion. He seems to say that "it does not matter" how bad this season is, because we have all the good previous seasons. He is basically saying the good stuff is all over, without talking about the possibility it can get better. This is too provocative a statement and is not consistent with past history.
 
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Perhaps you hit the nail on the head here. I think this is the most important point we can make about that video. The major flaw in the video is the final conclusion. He seems to say that "it does not matter" how bad this season is, because we have all the good previous seasons. He is basically saying to good stuff is all over, without talking about the possibility it can get better. This is too provocative a statement and is not consistent with past history.

I didn’t get as far as the end of the video xD

I still can’t shake the feeling we are heading for another wilderness years within the next couple. We technically meet the regeneration count for it too. One more doctor at a push.
 
To be fair I didn't become a fan till 2005 so to me the new era is how I define the show. I am not against change or diversity. Just that it needs to hold onto the fun and weird stuff. That is why I reference often to Legends of Tommorow. It has all of the modern sensibilities. While Who is giving us a lecture on Rosa Parks the other is giving us nipple eating unicorns. Not that you can't do Rosa Parks but that episode would have been less dull if it involved nipple eating unicorns trying to get on the bus to attack people. Jason
 
To be fair I didn't become a fan till 2005 so to me the new era is how I define the show. I am not against change or diversity. Just that it needs to hold onto the fun and weird stuff. That is why I reference often to Legends of Tommorow. It has all of the modern sensibilities. While Who is giving us a lecture on Rosa Parks the other is giving us nipple eating unicorns. Not that you can't do Rosa Parks but that episode would have been less dull if it involved nipple eating unicorns trying to get on the bus to attack people. Jason

When doing something a bit serious, you shouldn’t go too far out there, even in Who ( if it’s real history anyway.) but the problem with Rosa is that it tells a story most kids get in school anyway, adds SF elements to make it modern Who, but the bits added make no sense. Modern historically will als have the Hitler in a cupboard problem...The Doctor showing up in any other planets Nazi Germany would immediately overthrow it. Why not ours? Then you need an explanation (he flimsy one usually being ‘fixed point in time’ or something like the Genesis Of The Daleks speech fused with a ‘and you sorted it out in the end didn’t you?’) for why they didn’t. Or you have to have the Doctor help nudge history in the right direction (which they sort of did here) and hope you don’t take anything away from the achievements of real important historical figures. (One of the reasons Classic Who did not touch WW2 until practically the end of its run...it’s too important to people still living at that time.)
The villain in this case use makes no sense, unless you have a grand speech which makes America the single most important country in the development of Earth, só that it’s Civil Rights movement becomes somehow something that leads to a Great And Bountiful Human Empire that somehow let’s in all sorts of aliens and what have you, and Future Space Rascist thinks this is wrong and decides this moment is the one that derails that future history. Which really doesn’t fit well in Who and it’s general avoidance of overt really big history stuff.
What it needed was a smaller, human story, or to go pure historical...a better story would be a time displaced human trying to change history for smaller personal reasons. Or the old Aztecs standby...someone trying to change the culture overnight with future knowledge, and the Doctor having to make sure history unfolds at its correct pace, even if that feels like the wrong thing to do.
(Basically what Demons of the Punjab gets right is that it is this smaller personal story tied to a companion. History is the setting, it’s historical events are not the story, the small personal one is.)
It needed more time to bake, and certainly the question needed asking, not ‘is It right to choose this moment in history to tell people about?’ (Because people should know about it, even if practically everyone does...though that’s probably why Who never does the Gunpowder Plot...we all know how it goes, and it’s far too politically charged to touch in an entertainment show for families.) so much as ‘is this the right moment to do in Doctor Who?’ And if you are determined to do it, a lot more needs to go into ‘how do we make that work?’ And not quite enough went into that. Enough to be respectful and not piss people off yes, but not enough to make it really make sense.

Imagine if you will, that it turns out the villain is an older, time displaced Graham ( a la Amy) who having been separated from the others with Ryan at some other point in the episode actually did see and fail Ryan being lynched (we don’t need to see any of this, because it’s all personal to this older Graham.) and turns to violently trying to bring about the end to segregation using foreknowledge etc. He plans to shoot the police that take Rosa off the bus say, and begin a violent campaign there, Or perhaps it is simply that Older Graham knows it was the same officers that killed ‘his’ Ryan, and it’s a little smaller but will get bigger.
This is antiethical to the peaceful aims of MLK (Who is perhaps friends with the older Graham, not realising his darker purpose.) and the Doctor (Who is responsible for Older Graham’s darker path by inadvertently causing this temporal shenanigans in the first place) and her companions, including the young Graham and still-living Ryan, have to prevent this and find the right place to intervene to make sure Graham and Ryan don’t end up in the situation that creates it in the first place.
Now there is a personal story, personal stakes for the shows characters. There’s a thematic link about peaceful protest and why the Doctor doesn’t interfere in history, how violence begets violence (perhaps we see a future where the whole earth is segregated following the violence that Old Graham creates accidentally spreading across the globe and the knee jerk reaction to that.) and at no point do we need to take anything away from actual historical events or compromise the lead characters (apart from a version of Graham that Graham himself will ultimately deal with perhaps in a way very similar to his role in events in the actual episode. Perhaps he grapples himself and we get the old blinovitch limitation effect going boom and putting things back to ‘normal’ history.) whilst still showcasing an historical event. This also helps build the characters across the series, and ties in with the final episode as we saw it...Graham knows not to go for vengeance, because he’s seen what it did to the other version of him.
That is just off the cuff thinking literally as I typed...but it makes more sense than Space Rascist, and making Ryan into a (gunwielding) killer by proxy.
 
One of the annoying things about Mel (the most annoying thing about her was her voice) is that we have no idea how she became the Doctor's companion in the first place. One day she was there, and we were never told how or why.

It's a mark of how awful Clara was that I rank Clara as more annoying than Mel.
 
One of the annoying things about Mel (the most annoying thing about her was her voice) is that we have no idea how she became the Doctor's companion in the first place. One day she was there, and we were never told how or why.

It's a mark of how awful Clara was that I rank Clara as more annoying than Mel.

They pulled her out of time after she met the Doctor and accidentally introduced her to him early...we don’t know if this paradox is ever resolved, but the novels did a version of her proper first story I think. Tbh, I think it’s more fun if the paradox just stands given what comes later. I have only ever seen Mels first and last stories, so I can’t claim to be a fan or not a fan, since my experience of the character is entirely from Target novels which are naturally 99 percent Bonnie Langford free.
 
One of the annoying things about Mel (the most annoying thing about her was her voice) is that we have no idea how she became the Doctor's companion in the first place. One day she was there, and we were never told how or why.

It's a mark of how awful Clara was that I rank Clara as more annoying than Mel.

https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/The_Wrong_Doctors_(audio_story)

This is a fan-animation of the first three minutes of The Wrong Doctors Audio Story.

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Sorry, when you criticize something on the Internet you're not "daring." You're just another ubiquitous Internet critic. You might even have valid points. But, it's not "daring."
[Saavik]Sarcasm. It is a difficult concept.[/Saavik] :rolleyes:

There are people on this forum who flip out and practically accuse you of being the antichrist if you don't like the same show they do.
 
Something I noticed at Shore Leave, a media sci-fi con held near Baltimore every summer, over the weekend -- there was almost no Doctor Who cosplay this year, but what there was was all thirteenth Doctor. No one dressed up as Ten. No one wearing a fez. But there were women, and girls, wearing the striped blue shirt, suspenders (or bracers, depending on which side of the Pond you're on), high-waisted pants and boots, and some even had the coat.

Does the lack of Whovian cosplay mean that Doctor Who is a mess or in decline? I doubt it. Media sci-fi is a very different landscape now than it was eight or ten years ago when Doctor Who was at its peak, and Shore Leave is, frankly, an aging convention. One convention is not a trend.
 
Does the lack of Whovian cosplay mean that Doctor Who is a mess or in decline? I doubt it. Media sci-fi is a very different landscape now than it was eight or ten years ago when Doctor Who was at its peak, and Shore Leave is, frankly, an aging convention. One convention is not a trend.
Could just be a reflection of because there's no new Doctor Who this year it isn't really on many people's radar. It'll be interesting to see how much Doctor Who cosplay there is at Comic Con.

Related note: is there going to be a Doctor Who panel at Comic Con this year? I don't think I've heard anything yet.
 
There are people on this forum who flip out and practically accuse you of being the antichrist if you don't like the same show they do.

That sounds like a compliment.

Young Sam Neil.

A rich successful handsome charismatic popular world leader.

An adored sexual magnate.

So, not Trump.

If it's endtimes, then the sexiest world leader is the antichrist.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/b...s/news-story/9df1affb77472017507d00fabc29d215

Tudeau obviously.

Double yummy.

The King of Spain is wow.

Its not such a great list when Obama is on it for being young.

No biggy.
 
They pulled her out of time after she met the Doctor and accidentally introduced her to him early...we don’t know if this paradox is ever resolved, but the novels did a version of her proper first story I think. Tbh, I think it’s more fun if the paradox just stands given what comes later. I have only ever seen Mels first and last stories, so I can’t claim to be a fan or not a fan, since my experience of the character is entirely from Target novels which are naturally 99 percent Bonnie Langford free.

If Michael Grade hadn’t fired Colin Baker, the Season 24 opener would have been Melanie’s proper intro I think. As it is, I wish Big Finish would hurry up and adapt ‘Business Unusual’ (the aforementioned novel) while Colin’s still around to do it!
 
It'll take a while, but boys will cosplay as Thirteen. I've seen girls cosplay as Ten and Eleven so it will happen. Hell, I like Thirteen's rainbow top, I would be happy to wear it.
 
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