Was there anyone in DS9 with the rank of Commodore?
- Thread starter Photon
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TNG onwards largely phased out the Commodore rank in favour of 1-pip admirals or fleet captains.
Don't think DS9 had any "fleet captains", but there's tons of speculation about what Sloan's (fake) rank insignia meant in "Inquisition."
Sisko would’ve been a “Fleet Captain” in Season Six when he was assigned to that other starbase and was in charge of fleet deployment.
By the way, what does a Fleet Captain really do?
I thought (I have no real Naval experience, so, please correct these ideas) Fleet Captains were the Admiral's Aid/Advisor, where the Admiral is over a fleet and the Fleet Captain relays the Admiral's orders to the other ship Captains. He may also be responsible for maintaining day-to-day coordination within/between ships in the fleet. If the Admiral has a flagship, the flagship might have its own regular captain, or does/can the Fleet Captain also have that job, too. Am I over the target?
I thought (I have no real Naval experience, so, please correct these ideas) Fleet Captains were the Admiral's Aid/Advisor, where the Admiral is over a fleet and the Fleet Captain relays the Admiral's orders to the other ship Captains. He may also be responsible for maintaining day-to-day coordination within/between ships in the fleet. If the Admiral has a flagship, the flagship might have its own regular captain, or does/can the Fleet Captain also have that job, too. Am I over the target?
Well, sure, "would have", but never stated on-screen, so it didn't happen.
According to my Aubrey/Maturin books, "Commodore" was only a temporary command title for a mission. The Commodore, for all essential purposes, is an Admiral over a small fleet, but he does not rate a separate Captain for command of his own ship, and something to do with division of prize money where he has to give a portion to the commanding Admiral over the region.
Maybe Starfleet made the rank more permanent, but maybe both Commodore Decker and Commodore Wesley were only temporary in rank: an extended mission for Decker; and only for the M-5 exercise for Wesley.
Maybe Starfleet made the rank more permanent, but maybe both Commodore Decker and Commodore Wesley were only temporary in rank: an extended mission for Decker; and only for the M-5 exercise for Wesley.
Well, Starfleet had a pretty graphic rank identifier for Commodore in TOS (and in the TOS movies, although the fancy pip system there is never explicated and can be reinterpreted just as we please). Starfleet also had a pretty graphic rank identifier for folks who ought to hold the lowest flag rank - it's just that we never saw a true one-pipper or heard the proper rank or form of address.
While "Commodores" in WWII probably were of Captain rank (or indeed mere civilians) more often than not, Starfleet does not appear to rely too heavily on that historical ballast to keep its ranks straight. The lack of mention of Commodores in Trek isn't particularly indicative of anything - after all, we get only a single mention of a Vice Admiral in all of TNG, DS9 and VOY together IIRC ("Inter Arma"), and we don't even get to see this guy's pips, but it doesn't follow we should think Starfleet dropped that rank previously and afterwards and only activated it for that episode or season or whatever... And of course obscure background graphics kept referring to Commodores in the TNG era, off focus and all that.
Where we get a bit of confusion is the first year of TNG where somebody with no pips can be an Admiral just as well as somebody with two pips. It's difficult to postulate a flag rank lower than the pipless one! But the no-pip rank might still be Commodore, only now warranting a more egalitarian form of address.
Timo Saloniemi
While "Commodores" in WWII probably were of Captain rank (or indeed mere civilians) more often than not, Starfleet does not appear to rely too heavily on that historical ballast to keep its ranks straight. The lack of mention of Commodores in Trek isn't particularly indicative of anything - after all, we get only a single mention of a Vice Admiral in all of TNG, DS9 and VOY together IIRC ("Inter Arma"), and we don't even get to see this guy's pips, but it doesn't follow we should think Starfleet dropped that rank previously and afterwards and only activated it for that episode or season or whatever... And of course obscure background graphics kept referring to Commodores in the TNG era, off focus and all that.
Where we get a bit of confusion is the first year of TNG where somebody with no pips can be an Admiral just as well as somebody with two pips. It's difficult to postulate a flag rank lower than the pipless one! But the no-pip rank might still be Commodore, only now warranting a more egalitarian form of address.
Timo Saloniemi
The Commodore appears once in DS9.
But then I'm talking about the book with that title. It's on a padd in the Muse.
But then I'm talking about the book with that title. It's on a padd in the Muse.
A glass of wine with you, sir!
Were there ever any one-pip admirals? That’d be an interesting insignia to see.
I don’t think I’m pro-commodore in the TNG era, but “rear admiral, upper half / lower half” sounds really clunky, lazy, and a little insulting/obsequious. (I don’t care that it’s based on the US military.)
I don’t think I’m pro-commodore in the TNG era, but “rear admiral, upper half / lower half” sounds really clunky, lazy, and a little insulting/obsequious. (I don’t care that it’s based on the US military.)
The U.S. Navy didn't start that "upper half, lower half" crap until the 1980s, if I remember right.
Has Star Trek made explicit that Starfleet ranks are based on the USN, and not (for instance) the British Navy? The British had two ranks of Commodore: 1st class (with full captains reporting to them) and 2nd class (commanding several smaller vessels, each commanded by an officer below captain). The 1st class was an appointment, not a rank.
Has Star Trek made explicit that Starfleet ranks are based on the USN, and not (for instance) the British Navy? The British had two ranks of Commodore: 1st class (with full captains reporting to them) and 2nd class (commanding several smaller vessels, each commanded by an officer below captain). The 1st class was an appointment, not a rank.
The ensign and lieutenant (j.g.) ranks are a pretty good indication.
The original distinction was that the commodore first class was like an admiral, with a captain under him to command the ship he was on, and the commodore second class captained his own ship as well as a small squadron; usually ships the same type, so also commanded by full captains. Both classes of commodores were actual ranks, both equal to an army brigadier, but temporary for the duration of a particular appointment. Most officers would go straight from captain to rear admiral. The odd thing was that outside of that squadron, commodores still ranked as captains, so, say, if a squadron of cruisers under a commodore met up with a battleship commanded by a more senior captain, the senior captain was in charge and the commodore hauled down his broad pennant.
In WW1 battleship, battlecruiser and armored cruiser squadrons (ships with c. 800 crew or more) would be commanded by a rear admiral, while light cruiser squadrons (ships with 450-500 complement) were usually commanded by a commodore second class who also commanded one of the cruisers, the most well-know example being Commodore William Goodenough and the 2nd LCS. By WW2 commodores of both classes had largely become shore or staff posts, except for commodores 2nd class RNR in charge of convoys. The full captain commanding a destroyer flotilla (destroyer captains having the rank of commander or lieutenant commander) had the title of "Captain (D)."
Gregory Quinn and Mark Jameson both appeared to be one star Admirals, and relevant to the OPs point in that they were consistently addressed as "Admiral" not "Commodore", although they both predated the boxed pips insignia and instead had only the unique flag officer pin with no pips underneath.
We never saw another one though after the Admiral uniform redesign. The one pip in a box rank insignia which tends to feature in reference material and is sold for costuming is conjectural.
The bottle stands by you, sir.
You do me great honour, Sir.
To complicate things, in TMP (presumably Rear-) Admiral Kirk wears one star, which makes it seem like commodore is not a flag rank.
How can you tell that? Up to and including TMP, rank - even with admirals - was depicted via stripes, not stars.
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