Is it impossible to release HD DS9?

[Karla1]

I’ve been waiting a long time to see if a HD version of DS9 would be released on dvd or blu Ray, but I saw the following tweet and apparently because the data was not stored properly it would be much to costly to do? Is this the case? Also, has it ever been tried to raise the money for a HD version of DS9 via online fundraising?

“
That would be awesome. Unfortunately, they lost all of the information needed for CGI and non-film data due to horrific storage methods. They'd have to rebuild all of that from scratch, which is way too cost prohibitive. Same for Voyager.
”

https://twitter.com/widescreenjohn/status/1127241778955018240?s=21

 

[Takeru]

Everything can be redone, if 3d models have to be rebuild it can be done and if CBS believed they could make money by doing it it'd be in the works.

The reason it's not being done is that DS9 isn't that popular, even if all the files still existed they wouldn't do an HD version of DS9 because the audience isn't there to support it. They did TNG and weren't satisfied with the results so it shouldn't be a surprise a less popular series isn't getting the upgrade.

The only chance is costs going down in the future to make it viable, otherwise forget it.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I'm not sure that is precise. From what I understood, the problem is that the practical special effects produced for the first five seasons were filmed in VHS quality--there is no 35mm film to return to in order to get a higher resolution print. Those scenes would need to be either reconstructed or more laboriously cleaned up in order to bring them up to HD standards.

Furthermore, there is a matter of perception: CBS does not see any value in restoring the remainder of the franchise after the TNG blu-rays did not make them a profit. That might change with new technology or new priorities.

 

[Tosk]

It could be redone.
It probably won't be.

 

[Takeru]

I'm not sure that is precise. From what I understood, the problem is that the practical special effects produced for the first five seasons were filmed in VHS quality--there is no 35mm film to return to in order to get a higher resolution print. Those scenes would need to be either reconstructed or more laboriously cleaned up in order to bring them up to HD standards.

The thread is about the later seasons cgi models and scenes. But yes, for non cgi effects DS9 would run into the same problems as TNG.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The thread is about the later seasons cgi models and scenes. But yes, for non cgi effects DS9 would run into the same problems as TNG.

I'm sorry, but the thread's title is a concise statement of the thread's subject matter.

 

[tomswift2002]

With Deep Space Nine it was shot and edited like this:

Live-Action and physical model shots were shot on 35mm film and then transferred to D2 Composite Digital Videotape at 480i unless a shot was required to have a special effect (such as a transporter effect or an exterior shot of DS9), that was transferred to D1 Component Digital Videotape for higher quality compositing.

CGI shots were exported from Computer to D1 Component tape at 480i. The D1 tapes of the CGI and Effects were then sent to Paramount where it was edited into the episode’s D2 Composite Video Master via Composite Video (D2 can only accept Composite).

So currently DS9 (And Voyager) exist as complete episodes on D2 Composite Digital Videotape. Now then for HD the 35mm film parts can easily be transferred to 1080p. With the CGI, a lot of the animators still have copies of the CGI that they kept for their own files. And that CGI was overbuilt from the get-go, as the animation houses thought it would be a good move should Paramount want the models used in a feature film. As it turns out, the “Ships Of The Line” calendar line came about because of the opening shot of Voyager’s “Relativity” And apparently a number of the models created for DS9 and Voyager (including the Voyager TV model) are still being used in the calendars and on the covers for the novels.

Of course another cheaper option would be for CBS to transfer the 35mm sections to HD and then upscale the D1 Component Master tapes. This would give a quasi-HD version ala “SeaQuest DSV” and apparently “Babylon 5”.

 

[Tosk]

Of course another cheaper option would be for CBS to transfer the 35mm sections to HD and then upscale the D1 Component Master tapes. This would give a quasi-HD version ala “SeaQuest DSV” and apparently “Babylon 5”.

Which I hope they don't go for if they ever do bite the bullet. It means that every shot that had an effect added suddenly looks a lot worse than every shot around it, which (IMO) is worse than watching the whole ep at lesser quality. Distracting as fuuuuh.

 

[tomswift2002]

Which I hope they don't go for if they ever do bite the bullet. It means that every shot that had an effect added suddenly looks a lot worse than every shot around it, which (IMO) is worse than watching the whole ep at lesser quality. Distracting as fuuuuh.

At least if the original D1 tapes exist it wouldn’t be upscaling Composite Video, but Component Video so the it would look better color wise than the DVD’s. The worst they could do is a “Babylon 5” Widescreen transfer!

 

[Tosk]

At least if the original D1 tapes exist it wouldn’t be upscaling Composite Video, but Component Video so the it would look better color wise than the DVD’s.

And without the effed up compression issues of the DVDs, to boot. I would absolutely love if they re-released DS9 straight from the tapes to Blu-ray. No, it wouldn't be HD but in SD you could fit heaps of eps on each disc and at better quality than the DVDs.

 

[Relayer1]

There was a pretty comprehensive thread on this already. The TL;DR synopsis is that the live action stuff was filmed and could therefore theoretically be dug out of the archives, rescanned in HD, cleaned up digitally and reassembled.

However, unlike TNG, most of the SFX shots were done digitally in standard definition. They would need to be reprocessed to HD if the original digital material still exists (apparently a lot does) or redone from scratch - both are expensive and time consuming.

Furthermore, DS9 has more SFX on live action shots than TNG due to Odo's morphing. These would also need to be redone.

The bottom line is that restoring DS9 (and Voyager) would be more difficult, more time consuming and more costly than with TNG, which cost around $20m and failed to turn a profit. It's not going to happen.

There is an argument that as technology improves and gets cheaper with AI a digitally cleaned up and upscaled version would be viable (if not as effective) and justify it's doing by keeping DS9 available to broadcast on the future.

Personally, I think it may be best done as an officially sanctioned and franchised fans project, at least for the SFX - some fan work is very impressive, but that's not going to happen either.

All of the above and more. In detail :

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/ds9-on-blu-ray.231961/page-169

 

[tomswift2002]

And without the effed up compression issues of the DVDs, to boot. I would absolutely love if they re-released DS9 straight from the tapes to Blu-ray. No, it wouldn't be HD but in SD you could fit heaps of eps on each disc and at better quality than the DVDs.

Even Blu-Ray will have compression for SD material. D2 tape, as I recall has a bitrate around 100Mbps, whereas Blu-Ray is at 40Mbps.

And Relayer1, we still don’t know that TNG-HD did not turn a profit. CBS has been quiet on that point since 2013.

 

[BillJ]

And Relayer1, we still don’t know that TNG-HD did not turn a profit. CBS has been quiet on that point since 2013.

I’m sure it turned a profit at some point, the question is whether or not it was a good use of resources. Could they have taken that investment and made more money elsewhere?

 

[tomswift2002]

I’m sure it turned a profit at some point, the question is whether or not it was a good use of resources. Could they have taken that investment and made more money elsewhere?

As far as we know TNG-HD was always in profit, even using Hollywood Accounting practices, as TNG had been in profit since 1993, so even with the $20 million budget, TNG-HD was in profit.

As for whether it was a good use of resources, business wise it was as it keeps the series viable, since CBS can charge a higher amount for ads and licensing of an HD program than they could for a SD program. It’s like the switch over from b&w to color in the 60’s. Color programs offered longer viability and distributors were able to charge higher fees than they could for b&w programming.

For DS9 and Voyager, CBS might as well only be charging $1 per ad or throwing them in as free bonuses for broadcast/internet packages, whereas with TNG the can be charging $50,000 an ad.

 

[Tosk]

Even Blu-Ray will have compression for SD material.

My concern isn't compression in general, it's the compression on the DS9 DVDs, which ranges from fine to absolutely shocking.

 

[tomswift2002]

My concern isn't compression in general, it's the compression on the DS9 DVDs, which ranges from fine to absolutely shocking.

The compression on the DS9 DVD’s is the same as the TNG, Voyager & Enterprise DVD’s. TOS episodes are longer so they are compressed a little more to fit on the DVD-9’s. But DS9, considering a lot of episodes were more action heavy than TNG & Voyager, there might be issues with the high action scenes. Also we know the Ira Behr didn’t like DS9’s transfers when they were doing them in the 90’s, so that could be adding to the problems with the DVD compression.

 

[Relayer1]

TNG had been in profit since 1993, so even with the $20 million budget, TNG-HD was in profit.

As for whether it was a good use of resources...

Well it might have been a little less in profit after the TNG-HD project ! Even so, it's preserved and future proofed TNG going forward and if it hasn't paid for itself yet, it will eventually.

Besides, if you went to a major studio and offered to conjure up seven seasons of a halfway popular new show for $20m they'd be delighted. DS9 and Voyager could effectively be that.

DS9's use as repeats or channel filler is currently very limited at SD. Even 1080 HD is becoming obsolete but as new standards are only incremental improvements, a HD rework to will always be watchable. There's a business case but only when the costs drop sufficiently.

EDIT : It may be a good idea to offer widescreen versions as well as the original format going forward. Deciding scene by scene whether to stretch, crop or zoom (or even extend by CG if affordable) could give a much better result than otherwise obtained.

 

[Kor]

...
Of course another cheaper option would be for CBS to transfer the 35mm sections to HD and then upscale the D1 Component Master tapes. This would give a quasi-HD version ala “SeaQuest DSV” and apparently “Babylon 5”.

Something like that was done for The X-Files. The SFX scenes look terrible.

Kor

 

[Sakonna]

I feel like our only hope on this one is the invention of new, cheaper-to-use technology that fundamentally changes the math. Maybe in 10, 20 years someone will have devised a more cost-efficient way to upgrade SD footage or create great CGI.

 

[tomswift2002]

Well it might have been a little less in profit after the TNG-HD project ! Even so, it's preserved and future proofed TNG going forward and if it hasn't paid for itself yet, it will eventually.

Besides, if you went to a major studio and offered to conjure up seven seasons of a halfway popular new show for $20m they'd be delighted. DS9 and Voyager could effectively be that.

DS9's use as repeats or channel filler is currently very limited at SD. Even 1080 HD is becoming obsolete but as new standards are only incremental improvements, a HD rework to will always be watchable. There's a business case but only when the costs drop sufficiently.

EDIT : It may be a good idea to offer widescreen versions as well as the original format going forward. Deciding scene by scene whether to stretch, crop or zoom (or even extend by CG if affordable) could give a much better result than otherwise obtained.

From what I’ve seen on SPACE here in Canada, TNG-HD seems to get the high paying advertisers like Coke, rather than those lower paying like those “As Seen On TV” ads. But from what I’ve seen, CBS has all but eliminated the original SD versions of TNG from TV and streaming sites, and the only SD versions are downgraded from the HD, with the exception of the DVD’s.

But even streaming, people are getting lower resolution for DS9 & Voyager than even cable/satellite, just the way CBS de-interlaced the files so it could upload 480p files to all the streaming sites.