Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

[gblews]

That is true, but having pictures plastered on your wall, making a mannequin, and then having a sex robot in Buffy’s likeness might be taking things a little to far.

Just so you know, Spike's development continues all the way through season 6 and all the way through season 7, and is a wonder to behold.

I'm a bit confused:

Showrunner: Marti Noxon
Contrary popular belief, Noxon remained the showrunner for Buffy's final season.

You mean "returned"? Because I thought you said she left.

Whedon guest wrote/directed the season premiere and series finale plus moved Noxon's executive producer credit from the final title card to the opening in order to take the external heat from fans and TV critics of of her.

Why was she being criticized?

In hindsight it's not surprising that Noxon's been let go from every single showrunning gig she's had since over "creative differences"

Why was this not surprising.

 

[tomalak301]

Bargaining

Season 6 starts dealing with the Aftermath of Buffy's death and how everyone is coping with it. I have to say there really isn't much to say about these two episodes so just a few bullet point thoughts:

1) Willow really is advancing with her witchcraft. I've noticed watching these episodes quickly how much advancement these characters have even if you don't notice it right away. I mean one minute Willow and Tara are talking about witchcraft, and the next Willow is performing a spell to bring Buffy back and snakes are coming out of her mouth. Yeah there is a lot that happened in between but it really is amazing how far the writers push these characters in what feels like a short amount of time

2) The Demons were ok. Another thing I was thinking is how better they look with experience. What I mean is the Master and his group looked so corny in season 1, and I get advancements in make up and tech, but it's a very noticeable difference.

3) They really got a lot of use out of the Buffy Bot moteif. I'm glad we're done with the Robot phase, even though it was fun while it lasted

4) My favorite scene in this entire 2 part episode was going back to the tower and kind of replaying The Gift. Honestly, the two of them (Buffy and Dawn) up there had a major impact on me last night to the point where I was thinking about it long after I watched the episode (Like I didn't fall asleep until after 2 AM because I was thinking and rewatching that scene) and I even put in part of Buffy's quote as my new signature. There are quotes that come along that really resonate with me, such as Q's "That is the exploration that awaits you.." line in All Good Things, or Ivanova's monolouge in Sleeping in Light (Babylon 5), or Chrichton's "This is your playground" quote at the end of Peacekeeper Wars. Well, Buffy's quote to end The Gift was some of the best writing I have seen in a long long time. To revisit that in this episode with Dawn saying "You told me to be strong, but I need you" actually made me choke up a little. Also, watching the tower come down felt really symbolic to me, in a Buffy is really back kind of way.

5) They really wrote Giles out of the series. He's not in the credits and he was a "special guest star" in the first episode. That's a bummer because I was really looking forward to his contributions to the musical.

It was a pretty good Start to season 6

I also have a bit of a confession to make. I don't know the context, but I know the episode of the "Controversial scene". Honestly, I didn't really want that to overshadow season 6, and unlike you guys watching it originally, you don't know it's coming until it finally hits you. In my case, I do know it's coming and I was actually a little worried it might cloud my judgement on the season, so the controversial scene was in Episode 19, "Seeing Red". I actually hope the context of the episode makes things a little easier to go down, even if I am anticipating an uncomfortable scene. With that in mind, and with my peace of mind, Season 6 starts and we are 5 episodes away from The Musical.

 

[OCD Geek]

A lot of them have also gone on to work on some truly great show, both as showrunners and writers.

I didn't realize that scene had that big of an effect behind the scenes. Buffy was on long before I really paid any attention to what was going on behind the scenes, or in fandom, so I know nothing about it's production.

Spoiler: THE CONTROVERSIAL SCENE and fallout/Series finale spoilers too/Also Angel. You know what? Just don't read these Tomolak.

Here's the gist. Not only did many of the writers, Sarah Michelle Gellar and James Marsters feel that, as messed up as he is, Spike would never rape Buffy. Gellar and Marsters were also extremely uncomfortable about filming the scene. Like, they did not want to do it. They didn't feel safe. They really didn't want to do it. Here's where the shit hits the fan.

Noxon reportedly told them that they will do it because it's their job and that's what they're paid for. They reiterated that it wasn't just a creative disagreement about Spike. They straight up didn't feel comfortable or safe performing the scene. Noxon didn't give a shit. Then Gellar and Marsters announced that they quit the show, as did Anya actress Emma Caulfield . Noxon told the execs at UPN and 20th Century Fox Television that their stars just quit the show. They were furious and sent Joss Whedon (busy working on the Firefly pilot for a few months at this point) down to the set to give Gellar, Marsters and Caulfield an ultimatum: Either you film this scene and stay on for Season 7 like you are contracted to or UPN and 20th Century Fox Television will sue you to pay the cast and crew for the Season 7 that never was and for the ad and syndication revenue that both companies will lose.

Gellar and Marsters performed the scene. David Fury quit as Noxon's co-exec and joined Angel (Where, you'll notice, the rape is never brought up at all in Season 5). And the following year Gellar, Marsters and Caulfield returned like they were contracted to. Except Gellar announced in Entertainment Weekly that she was quitting the show. And Caulfield, who was still under contract for another season after Season 7, requested to be killed off in the series finale so she wouldn't be forced to join the proposed "Slayer School" spin-off about Willow and Dawn. Marsters (who has since repeatedly stated that he thinks Whedon doesn't like him) joined Jeffrey Bell's Angel after hearing good things about the work environment there.

Something my sisters pointed out to me that I never noticed because I'm dense. If you look at the bloopers for Seasons 2-6, Gellar and Marsters are really chummy and seem to really have fun together. The bloopers for Season 7? Not so much. Apparently performing THAT scene under duress ruined their working relationship. Which is a damn shame.

Has Jane Espenson ever been a showrunner on any of the shows she's worked on? She's written great episodes of some of my favorite shows, and if she hasn't been a showrunner yet, she really deserves to be.

Ronald D. Moore handed over showrunning duties to Espenson partway through Caprica's only season. Espenson then stepped down to focus on writing the show and handed over the showrunning reigns to Kevin Murphy. Not that Kevin Murphy. The Desperate Housewives one.

Her best work was as co-creator/co-showrunner/co-writer of the acclaimed webseries Husbands (2011-2013).
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Huh, I'd always assumed Whedon was the showrunner for Firefly.

Nope. He tapped Minear for the gig and was originally going to take a hands off approach, but Minear convinced him to join him as his co-exec. He felt it was Joss's baby and he should be a part of it.

It's a concept that Whedon had been playing with for years. An adventure about an eclectic group of space pirates. First with his screenplay for Alien: Resurrection (1997). Then with his screenplay for Titan A.E. (2000), which he co-wrote with future Firefly writer Ben Edlund. Then with Firefly (2002).

Just as a bit of an FYI in case anyone wasn't aware, Maurissa Tancharoen and Jed Whedon are Joss Whedon's sister in law and brother.

And were his co-writers on Dr. Horrible. Plus, they were the best writers on Dollhouse: Epitaph One, Belonging, The Attic, Epitaph Two: The Return. I had high hopes when I heard they were co-showrunning SHIELD, which heightened my disappointment when Seasons 1-3 were ...less than stellar. The two of them and Bell have been kicking ass and taking names with Seasons 4-6, though. There's the show I was hoping for and expecting!

Just so you know, Spike's development continues all the way through season 6 and all the way through season 7, and is a wonder to behold.

I'm a bit confused:

You mean "returned"? Because I thought you said she left.

Sorry. My list is a bit of a nightmare format wise. I meant that her co-exec David Fury quit due to what went down behind the scenes and in front of the camera, and was replaced by Jane Espenson for Season 7. Noxon was showrunner for both seasons.

Why was she being criticized?

See the above spoiler tag, but also...

Spoiler: Season 6 beyond THAT scene. Don't read this one either Tomolak.

Buffy fans and critics hated the "Bury your gays"-ing of Tara and the completely out of character attempted Buffy raping by Spike. They also hated Noxon's grimdark approach to Buffy in general.

Here's the criticism section from Wikipedia, including Noxon and Whedon's thoughts about the season:
Criticism
Season six of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is the most controversial amongst its ardent fandom because it was dramatically darker in tone than previous seasons; it has been called the show's "most hated season".[37] Syfy Wire stated that the show's sixth season "has always been a thorn in its fandom's side. It was a little darker, a little meaner, and a little too different from what came before for the entrenched base to accept."[38]

Joanna Robinson of Vanity Fair wrote on the 20th anniversary of the show's premiere that season 6, "a dark, unpopular chapter in the show's seven-year run...once its' most hated - has become its most important." Robinson praised the introduction of the Evil Trio, the much-maligned "Big Bad" villains for season 6, as presaging the later trend of "entitled, misogynistic rhetoric that rose to the surface during the Gamergate culture wars of 2014, and has seemingly infiltrated everything since—the 2016 presidential election included." She concluded, positively, that "It may lack some of the trademark zip of the show in its prime, and critics of the Dark Willow story line in particular are not wrong in their concerns. But with the luxury of historical context, Season 6 of Buffy carries more powerful resonance than any other moment in the show's history."[37]

About the season's criticism, Joss Whedon says: "I love season 6. It’s really important. But it was a very stark thing to do. It wasn’t just putting Buffy in a very bad, abusive, weird relationship, it was some sort of an end to magic. For me because childhood is so rich with metaphor, a lot of it had to do with leaving that behind. Instead of a bigger than life villain, we had the nerd troika. Instead of drinking blood and doing spells as sexual metaphor, we had sex. Things became very literal and they lost some of their loveliness. I still think that a lot of the best episodes we ever did were in season 6. I don’t agree with the detractors, but I understand it."[39]

Marti Noxon, who as acting showrunner for season 6 received the brunt of fan criticism, stated in 2018 that she felt parts of season 6 "went too far." She elaborated that "We pushed into some categories that almost felt sadistic and that Buffy was volunteering for things that were beyond just “bad choices” and were almost irresponsible for the character. That may have to do with my own history...And I think that killing Tara was — in retrospect, of all the people, did she have to die?"[40] She explained her rationale for taking Buffy in a darker direction, stating that "...I was really vocal about wanting Buffy to make some bad mistakes. My argument was that, when we become young women, especially if we're troubled or haunted by something, that can lead us to make some bad choices, especially in the area of romance."[40]

Why was this not surprising.

She's a fantastic writer, but is apparently a really tough person to work with. Hell, the only shows she even worked on as writer for more than one season were Buffy and Mad Men. Whedon and Matthew Weiner are some of the only people she has good things to say about these days.

 

[JD]

Spoiler: THE CONTROVERSIAL SCENE and fallout/Series finale spoilers too/Also Angel. You know what? Just don't read these Tomolak.

Here's the gist. Not only did many of the writers, Sarah Michelle Gellar and James Marsters feel that, as messed up as he is, Spike would never rape Buffy. Gellar and Marsters were also extremely uncomfortable about filming the scene. Like, they did not want to do it. They didn't feel safe. They really didn't want to do it. Here's where the shit hits the fan.

Noxon reportedly told them that they will do it because it's their job and that's what they're paid for. They reiterated that it wasn't just a creative disagreement about Spike. They straight up didn't feel comfortable or safe performing the scene. Noxon didn't give a shit. Then Gellar and Marsters announced that they quit the show, as did Anya actress Emma Caulfield . Noxon told the execs at UPN and 20th Century Fox Television that their stars just quit the show. They were furious and sent Joss Whedon (busy working on the Firefly pilot for a few months at this point) down to the set to give Gellar, Marsters and Caulfield an ultimatum: Either you film this scene and stay on for Season 7 like you are contracted to or UPN and 20th Century Fox Television will sue you to pay the cast and crew for the Season 7 that never was and for the ad and syndication revenue that both companies will lose.

Gellar and Marsters performed the scene. David Fury quit as Noxon's co-exec and joined Angel (Where, you'll notice, the rape is never brought up at all in Season 5). And the following year Gellar, Marsters and Caulfield returned like they were contracted to. Except Gellar announced in Entertainment Weekly that she was quitting the show. And Caulfield, who was still under contract for another season after Season 7, requested to be killed off in the series finale so she wouldn't be forced to join the proposed "Slayer School" spin-off about Willow and Dawn. Marsters (who has since repeatedly stated that he thinks Whedon doesn't like him) joined Jeffrey Bell's Angel after hearing good things about the work environment there.

Something my sisters pointed out to me that I never noticed because I'm dense. If you look at the bloopers for Seasons 2-6, Gellar and Marsters are really chummy and seem to really have fun together. The bloopers for Season 7? Not so much. Apparently performing THAT scene under duress ruined their working relationship. Which is a damn shame.

Yikes, I had no idea things got so ugly over all of that. I do think that scene was probably one of, if not the, biggest mistake they made on the show.

Ronald D. Moore handed over showrunning duties to Espenson partway through Caprica's only season. Espenson then stepped down to focus on writing the show and handed over the showrunning reigns to Kevin Murphy. Not that Kevin Murphy. The Desperate Housewives one.

Her best work was as co-creator/co-showrunner/co-writer of the acclaimed webseries Husbands (2011-2013).
Season 1

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Season 2

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Season 3 (Originally produced for The CW Seed)

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That must explain why I ended up liking Caprica so much, by the end I was think I was actually enjoying it more than I did BSG.
I've heard of Husbands, but never watched it.

 

[CorporalClegg]

"Cup o' tea. Cup o' tea. Almost got shagged. Cup o' tea..."

My life in a nutshell.

Also, marzipan is gross. It belongs in no pies.

 

[OCD Geek]

Yikes, I had no idea things got so ugly over all of that. I do think that scene was probably one of, if not the, biggest mistake they made on the show.



That must explain why I ended up liking Caprica so much, by the end I was think I was actually enjoying it more than I did BSG.
I've heard of Husbands, but never watched it.

Yeah, that scene was really the beginning of the end. I'm really impressed that if you watched those actors in Season 7 without knowing that they didn't want to be there, were forced to be there under threat of being sued into oblivion and were dead inside because they were stuck there, you wouldn't know anything was up. Professional...as...fuck.

I've actually never seen Husbands either. I haven't even thought about it for a few years until your question. I might check it out this weekend.

 

[tomalak301]

"Cup o' tea. Cup o' tea. Almost got shagged. Cup o' tea..."

My life in a nutshell.

Also, marzipan is gross. It belongs in no pies.

That quote happened so fast I actually wasn't sure what you were talking about so I went back and watched that scene.

 

[OCD Geek]

5) They really wrote Giles out of the series. He's not in the credits and he was a "special guest star" in the first episode.

Tony Head's family still lived in England during Buffy's entire run, and he wanted to spend more time with them. The plan was for him to star in his own spin-off Ripper, but UPN and the BBC couldn't agree over how many episodes it should be per year. UPN wanted 22. The BBC wanted 6. Instead of just meeting in the middle and making a 13 episode per season show, Ripper died the first of its many, many deaths.

 

[tomalak301]

Tony Head's family still lived in England during Buffy's entire run, and he wanted to spend more time with them. The plan was for him to star in his own spin-off Ripper, but UPN and the BBC couldn't agree over how many episodes it should be per year. UPN wanted 22. The BBC wanted 6. Instead of just meeting in the middle and making a 13 episode per season show, Ripper died the first of its many, many deaths.

Interesting. I think that was the most noticeable thing about the episode. I always loved the Buffy/Giles dynamic and I think that could have been something in Season 6, having Buffy talk to Giles about her death experience. Missed opportunity I guess.

*Of course if he comes back as a guest star I will be happily surprised.

 

[theenglish]

Sorry to interject about Season 6's big controversy:

Spoiler: Season 6

I am shocked to read about all the fall out that happened over that. It really explains Gellar's demeanor in interviews about her time on Buffy. I remember one interview after Buffy ended when she just said she was happy not to be working in a show where she had so many "bruises" which I thought to be an odd comment at the time.

I am also really surprised that the actors and production staff couldn't have reached a compromise. The showrunners could have just said, "here's the reason why we want this scene and here's our objective. Can we work together on somethng that makes you feel comfortable that will accomplish the same thing?"

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

I just wanted to say that I’ve decided to watch season 5 of Angel but I won’t be talking about it because this isn’t my thread. Just wanted to mention it.

 

[tomalak301]

After Life

I'm noticing a trend with these early episodes. The episode is cruising along and it's pretty good, but then it turns really great at the end. This episode was a perfect example of that. We get Buffy back and she's not "totally" back but that's understandable because of her experience. At the end though, she tells two complete stories to her friends and then to Spike and I can't help but think the one she told to Spike was the truth. Maybe that's what the episode wanted me to think, but her description was so vivid and when she says "This is hell" when talking about this living world around her, that was kind of chilling. She also says her friends must never know, which is also another reason why I think what she told Spike was true. I did appreciate it being left open to interpretation though. You can really get into deep religious themes with Death, and heck some of the best episodes of this genre have to do with Death and the different beliefs about what it is and where you go. There was something very contemplative about the last 5 minutes and it made the episode worth it in the end.

 

[Guy Gardener]

THOUGHTS about the "original" identity of the season 7 big bad.

Spoiler

#1. Eve. Original Sin was the first evil.
#2. Kane. THE FIRST murderer. The First takes on the appearance of the dead, and Kane invented dead people.
#3. Lyilith. The mother of Monsters. The First was a little maternal to the billion ubervamps swarming under the high school. From the patriarchies pov Lylith was the first ex-wife, which opens up some mysogenistic definitions of evil.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

THOUGHTS about the "original" identity of the season 7 big bad.

Spoiler

#1. Eve. Original Sin was the first evil.
#2. Kane. THE FIRST murderer. The First takes on the appearance of the dead, and Kane invented dead people.
#3. Lyilith. The mother of Monsters. The First was a little maternal to the billion ubervamps swarming under the high school. From the patriarchies pov Lylith was the first ex-wife, which opens up some mysogenistic definitions of evil.

Spoiler

Too biblical. The First Evil should be way older than the bible. By Buffyverse lore, it should be way older than the human race.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

So I’m a few episodes into Angel season 5 and I’m enjoying it so much that I’m going to just start from the beginning. Even though I watched season 1 years ago, I don’t remember much so a refresher is needed.

 

[OCD Geek]

So I’m a few episodes into Angel season 5 and I’m enjoying it so much that I’m going to just start from the beginning. Even though I watched season 1 years ago, I don’t remember much so a refresher is needed.

If this is your first time watching Angel, keep in mind that the show was originally intended to be a monster-of-the-week anthology. Although there are some standouts scattered throughout the season, the show and myth arc don't really get started until the final five episodes of Season 1.

It's worth it, though. Seasons 2-5 are some of my favorite genre television. And they later mined the early Season 1 episodes for ideas when they became a serialized show, so there is some nice set-up and foreshadowing there. Albeit unintended and retroactive.

 

[EnderAKH]

1) Willow really is advancing with her witchcraft. I've noticed watching these episodes quickly how much advancement these characters have even if you don't notice it right away. I mean one minute Willow and Tara are talking about witchcraft, and the next Willow is performing a spell to bring Buffy back and snakes are coming out of her mouth. Yeah there is a lot that happened in between but it really is amazing how far the writers push these characters in what feels like a short amount of time

Joss and co DO NOT believe in the status quo. There are a couple of characters on Angel that when you look at where they end compared to where they started, the difference is staggering. It's what made Voyager or any "reset button" show so frustrating , because that show should not have had a status quo, and yet did, then here comes Buffy and crew to show that the reset button does not have to be pressed.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Angel's lame. His hair goes straight up, and he's bloody stupid.

 

[jmc247]

Spoiler: THE CONTROVERSIAL SCENE and fallout/Series finale spoilers too/Also Angel. You know what? Just don't read these Tomolak.

Here's the gist. Not only did many of the writers, Sarah Michelle Gellar and James Marsters feel that, as messed up as he is, Spike would never rape Buffy. Gellar and Marsters were also extremely uncomfortable about filming the scene. Like, they did not want to do it. They didn't feel safe. They really didn't want to do it. Here's where the shit hits the fan.

Noxon reportedly told them that they will do it because it's their job and that's what they're paid for. They reiterated that it wasn't just a creative disagreement about Spike. They straight up didn't feel comfortable or safe performing the scene. Noxon didn't give a shit. Then Gellar and Marsters announced that they quit the show, as did Anya actress Emma Caulfield . Noxon told the execs at UPN and 20th Century Fox Television that their stars just quit the show. They were furious and sent Joss Whedon (busy working on the Firefly pilot for a few months at this point) down to the set to give Gellar, Marsters and Caulfield an ultimatum: Either you film this scene and stay on for Season 7 like you are contracted to or UPN and 20th Century Fox Television will sue you to pay the cast and crew for the Season 7 that never was and for the ad and syndication revenue that both companies will lose.

Noxon was looking for an Emmy and thought the scene would be her ticket to one and even was there promoting hard after.

Spoiler

The actual scene was based on one of the female creators who assaulted her boyfriend in collage thinking that sex was the way she would be able to get him back. A woman under current social norms isn’t treated the same way a man is doing the same thing.

The second problem with the scene was they tore away the metaphor for the scene of him being a vampire and her being the slayer simply to try to make it work. They tried to make it as real to life between a man and woman as possible to get that Emmy she was after. If the scene actually into account the metaphor for what they are as the early part of their violent relationship did I think opinions on it would have been quite different even down to the level of the actors.

Sexual assault comes with real life connotations that change in each era. Luke and Laura were the most popular couple of soap opera fame in the 70s and 80s. Social trends allowed for that. Social trends changed greatly by the 90s and 2000s and Marti's thinking was a generation out of date of the actors.

It actually wasn't out of character for Spike's actual pre-existing logic of giving his girlfriends what he believes they want, be it torture for Dru or sex for Buffy. Spike was shown back to his relationship with Dru not to operate on normal human logic in relationships where he feels he has to become what his girlfriend wants and do for them what he picks up they want from him, but the overall scene was presented entirely out of character for the characters because they removed the metaphor for what they were. Buffy wasn't the slayer in that scene, neither was Spike a vampire. There is a reason why they had Angel using his demon face when he snapped Giles' love interest's neck. They wanted to protect the character.

Marti's ego grew to epic size. At the time she was talking up what the audience needs not what the audience wants and talking about the show as her personal therapy. She didn't give a fig what the actors thought either.

Sexual assault she knew was hot button and wanted to push the button hard to get that Emmy. But, it was more then just hot button to the new generation. The generation when she was young... as I said the most popular couple in soap opera history was a woman who was actually full on raped and later married that man in a wedding watched by more of the public then any soap before or since. Go back a generation to the 30s and 40s and pretty typical male courtship behavior presented in the films of the era would be straight up sexual assault by more modern standards.

She ignored social trends, didn't get that Emmy either, and in the end the scene doomed the shows 7th season because they really didn't know how to deal with Spike in the next season and the male and female lead's hearts were no longer in the show.

In a lot of ways the show suffered from too much critical acclaim over the episode The Body which helped convince Marti that tearing away the metaphor (for a show built on metaphor) is the sure way to critical acclaim.

Joss checked Marti and with him out of dodge on Firefly the show became unbalanced with too little metaphor and too much soap. Also, you always listen to your actors as they have a better beat on current social trends then creators in the current age who are typical of another generation.

 

[tafkats]

Now that you're into Season 6, I can mention these lines from early in the series that take on new meaning when you rewatch ...

From Halloween:

Willow: "It's like amnesia, okay? They don't know who they are. Just sit tight."
Cordelia: "Who died and made her the boss?"

Back in Season 2, I'm guessing that Joss didn't know he would eventually ... have Buffy die and Willow end up the boss. But then there's this:

From The Freshman:

Buffy: "Can't wait till Mom gets the bill for these books. I hope it's a funny aneurysm."

TVTropes actually used this as the trope namer for the Funny Aneurysm Moment. For this one, given that it was just over a year before Joyce's brain tumor was discovered, it's possible that Joss was engaging in a little foreshadowing ... I don't know if he's ever said one way or the other.