Certainly the first half of this is what we see, evidence for the later is limited, but given that the pacifist Betazoids have them, further automated defenses probably should be present and the Starbases in orbit are probably likewise armed, though dialogue suggests that any mobile assests that could be sent against the Borg Cube in the time available already had been, so further warp-capable smallcraft being available in this specific instance seems unlikely, however given that any ship going up against the Borg was a 'one-shot kill' scenario in this era and their main weapon is a relatively slow moving tractor beam, fighters are an economical and logical weapon against the Borg specifically.
Fighters, per Discovery
- Thread starter FredH
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Certainly the first half of this is what we see, evidence for the later is limited, but given that the pacifist Betazoids have them, further automated defenses probably should be present and the Starbases in orbit are probably likewise armed, though dialogue suggests that any mobile assests that could be sent against the Borg Cube in the time available already had been, so further warp-capable smallcraft being available in this specific instance seems unlikely, however given that any ship going up against the Borg was a 'one-shot kill' scenario in this era and their main weapon is a relatively slow moving tractor beam, fighters are an economical and logical weapon against the Borg specifically.
When did the Betazeds become pacifists?
*Shrugs*
Maybe them being pacifists is a book only or fanon thing, but I definately remember that being implied in the "Battle of Betazed" book.
Could be wrong though.
We might have thought so before the season finale. But there the death of Cornwell specifically is quoted as the reason there's a job open at the very top of S31.
Seems like a very flat and narrow hierarchy, too: other losses specifically quoted were Captains Leland and Georgiou. So it seems there were no S31 Commodores, say. Or even Commanders of greater seniority at that rank than the wet-behind-the-surgically-implanted-ears Commander-who-never-was-Lieutenant-or-Ensign-or-even-raw-Cadet Tyler.
But flat and narrow is what you get if S31 kept most of its assets aboard those 30-something ships Control then sterilized, or sent its very top brass and their staff to that former prison satellite Control also sterilized...
Only the S31 fleet checked for Control infestations; the rest of Starfleet knows Control exists, and will notice how Control suddenly stops responding to their user queries, but that's about it. And at the specific moment of her death, Cornwell would appear to have been the last S31 officer of any note standing, apart from Tyler and Georgiou, and barring the miracle recovery of Leland. She wouldn't be covering up for the loss of S31 leadership, she would be getting charged with S31, in all senses of the word.
Accepting that Cornwell always was a S31 boss (even if not as high up as the quartet killed at the prison sat in "Project Daedalus") explains a great many things about her odd comings and goings. The Spore Drive seems to have been a S31 project, as per the black badges in the early episodes, comparable in many ways to the Red Angel project. Cornwell would be the one keeping close watch over the project, and over its point man Lorca who (soon after getting his bearings in this alien universe) no doubt gained access to the ship and its tech through his powerfully connected lover in the first place.
Cornwell's odd appearance aboard the S31 ship in "Saints of Imperfection", after seemingly hiding in the shadows throughout the spore realm adventure, is also nicely explained now. As is her general annoying habit of oddly disappearing.
The only real question here is, what sort of "cover" jobs did these explicit S31 bosses like Patar and Cornwell have? Did they bother to pretend they held some other job or not? Cornwell really does dedicate herself to shady stuff during the first season - but then again, it's wartime and "clean" bosses might be doing shady things, too. OTOH, Pike doesn't bat an eyelid when Cornwell marries him to Leland in a sermon preaching the virtues of S31 in "Saints of Imperfection" - but then again, Pike doesn't bat any eyelids at mushroom drives or resurrections or time crystals, either.
Timo Saloniemi
In my head canon, I see winged fighters as planetary or system based for the most part--swarming up to hamper any attacking capital ships that have their hands full with other capital ships. Had the Bird of prey tried to hit Grissom around Earth, it might have been swarmed.
While I generally prefer the 'fast attack boat' or corvette model in the 'fighter' role (Jem'hadar bug, Cardassian Hideki, Klingon BoP, Starfleet Saber and Defiant-classes) vis-a-vis warships within fleets, I think that true fighters might be somewhat viable in a 'system defence' role against pirates and armed merchants, though I'd favour something more missile/torpedo centric and runabout-sized or bigger so that it could mount something like a starship power system - for instance the 'drive section'/tractor of the J-class freighter is only about 70 metres long in total and only 30-40 for the 'cab' - but can fit a starship-grade warp core of the era and therefore power similar level weapons for at least short engagements*
* The closest equivalent in the 24th Century would be the Ju'day or Condor-class Raider operated by the Maquis.
* The closest equivalent in the 24th Century would be the Ju'day or Condor-class Raider operated by the Maquis.
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My take is this:
Fighters (and drones) would work for those situations where the technological nature of the region does not warrant the need of the presence of a starship. Certainly, in the case of dealing with the likes of the Maquis, raiders and other light-crafts, one could justify the use of fighters and even drones, especially in those regions that could hamper the navigation (like an asteroid belt). It's all about scale, and the parameters of the mission.
Fighters (and drones) would work for those situations where the technological nature of the region does not warrant the need of the presence of a starship. Certainly, in the case of dealing with the likes of the Maquis, raiders and other light-crafts, one could justify the use of fighters and even drones, especially in those regions that could hamper the navigation (like an asteroid belt). It's all about scale, and the parameters of the mission.
Ah, but you're assuming that engineers of the future wouldn't figure out a way to compensate for this...
small fighter vessles as tacklers to hamper target painting or prevent jumping to warp.
they could have been used in large numbers but only for a very brief period of time.
A real life example of a military craft that was briefly highly used then faded into obscurity is the dive bomber. It was tested very late in the Great War but did not come into its own until World War 2, where it was used extensively. However guidance systems, aircraft designs, radar, and other countermeasures all combined to make the very concept obsolete, perhaps a fielded career of less then two decades. That's shorter than some modern fighter plane development programs.
Another example would be single shot breech loading rifles. The muzzle loading musket had hundreds of years of development from arquebus to its pinnacle as the minie ball firing rifled musket of the 1860's but it was already being made obsolescent by repeating rifles. The problem was that most large militaries, while aware of the advantages of these early rifles like the Henry and Spencer, weren't willing to go to the expense or in some cases take a downgrade in performance which would cause tactics to change. And so for a few decades the single shot breech loading rifle was the infantry arm of choice: trapdoor Springfields, Remington Rolling Blocks, Chassepots, needleguns, Snider-Enfields, etc. A whole period of development flared up and was replaced rapidly by multiple shot breach loaders, which with various actions have remained the norm ever since.
Final example: the battleship. These terrors of the sea are reduced to a few floating museum pieces. They were incredibly effective for decades and gradually became obsolescent, the same as once happened to Monitor type ironclads.
So, I think yes its possible to fit in the Starfleet fighter into current continuity. It may have had a brief advantage that was made obsolescent by improvements in capital ship design and lessons learned on the battlefield. Maybe the the development of the Delta Flyer meant that a small fighter could once again find use deployed in fleet engagements. Maybe we'll see in the new Picard show.
they could have been used in large numbers but only for a very brief period of time.
A real life example of a military craft that was briefly highly used then faded into obscurity is the dive bomber. It was tested very late in the Great War but did not come into its own until World War 2, where it was used extensively. However guidance systems, aircraft designs, radar, and other countermeasures all combined to make the very concept obsolete, perhaps a fielded career of less then two decades. That's shorter than some modern fighter plane development programs.
Another example would be single shot breech loading rifles. The muzzle loading musket had hundreds of years of development from arquebus to its pinnacle as the minie ball firing rifled musket of the 1860's but it was already being made obsolescent by repeating rifles. The problem was that most large militaries, while aware of the advantages of these early rifles like the Henry and Spencer, weren't willing to go to the expense or in some cases take a downgrade in performance which would cause tactics to change. And so for a few decades the single shot breech loading rifle was the infantry arm of choice: trapdoor Springfields, Remington Rolling Blocks, Chassepots, needleguns, Snider-Enfields, etc. A whole period of development flared up and was replaced rapidly by multiple shot breach loaders, which with various actions have remained the norm ever since.
Final example: the battleship. These terrors of the sea are reduced to a few floating museum pieces. They were incredibly effective for decades and gradually became obsolescent, the same as once happened to Monitor type ironclads.
So, I think yes its possible to fit in the Starfleet fighter into current continuity. It may have had a brief advantage that was made obsolescent by improvements in capital ship design and lessons learned on the battlefield. Maybe the the development of the Delta Flyer meant that a small fighter could once again find use deployed in fleet engagements. Maybe we'll see in the new Picard show.
In the Trek environment, longevity of ideas and innovations is to be found in the fact that it's an entire fictional galaxy interacting there. Even if fightercraft are outdated against Klingons, they will be just perfect against the Primit'vans and godlike to the Cavemenites - and the thing supposed to replace them will be barely adequate against the 'Dvanseds and the laughing stock of the Superiorors.
So while Starfleet can't much afford to slow down, and has already lost the arms race to its betters many times over, it also can't easily afford to let go. But with replicators and other such inventions, "holding on to" will become much easier - and indeed the VOY heroes can throw together a Delta Flyer with little forethought or effort, just like Kirk was able to produce flintlocks when needed.
...Who knows, perhaps the fighter drones of "Sorrow" were flintlocks, too - trivial conversions of modern hardware, spares or materials to century-old militant specs, to be used as a convenient force multiplier against an opponent that had not yet completely outgrown a certain basic vulnerability to this ancient threat?
Timo Saloniemi
So while Starfleet can't much afford to slow down, and has already lost the arms race to its betters many times over, it also can't easily afford to let go. But with replicators and other such inventions, "holding on to" will become much easier - and indeed the VOY heroes can throw together a Delta Flyer with little forethought or effort, just like Kirk was able to produce flintlocks when needed.
...Who knows, perhaps the fighter drones of "Sorrow" were flintlocks, too - trivial conversions of modern hardware, spares or materials to century-old militant specs, to be used as a convenient force multiplier against an opponent that had not yet completely outgrown a certain basic vulnerability to this ancient threat?
Timo Saloniemi
The Delta Flyer doesn't really map as a single/dual seat fighter though, like the earlier runabout, it's more of a helicopter with ASW options - that can and is mostly used for other things - crossed with a Carrier-Onboard-Delivery aircraft.
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