Fighters, per Discovery
- Thread starter FredH
- Start date
I guess the keyword there is "power". Trek weapons need to be plugged into a power socket. If there's a small power plant at the other end of the plasma conduit, the weapon is weak. If there's a large power plant there, the weapon is strong. Can you pack a large warp core into a small craft?
And you probably can, within limits. The warp cores of the Defiant and the E-D are basically the same size, or at least within the same order of magnitude, but the latter dwarfs her warp core while the former does not. And the DS9 fightercraft have a higher assorted-unrecognizable-greeblies to easily-identified-crew-spaces ratio than even the Defiant, allowing us to think that the craft dedicate half their bulk to power generation and most of the other half to warp propulsion and armaments, with a tiny corner reserved for the at most two crew.
But that's just about the limit - and it results in a craft that cannot hurt capital ships, even in swarms, as seen in Operation Return. (Unless it somehow catches one pants/shields down? Is this what happened to Gul Evek's ship in "Preemptive Strike"?)
The fighter-bike of DSC might leave the warp drive ashore for more power, of course. And then this would be the limit, a design unfortunately not tested against capital ships, but otherwise matching the Control-operated (-modified?) S31 drones one quarter its size. Perhaps having even a single pilot (or provisions for an optional pilot) aboard carries a heavy penalty in things like reactor shielding, reducing the available power?
Timo Saloniemi
The Galaxy-class Warp core is at least three stories (~10ft in height) tall at minimum, whereas the Defiant's core is a single (shorter) deck tall, but the power-to-mass ratio is therefore potentially considerably larger.
The biggest concerns with manned fighters rather than drone fighters is that they basically a guaranteed suicide mission against starships (shuttles, opposing fighters and armed freighters could be fair game though), making them unpalettable for frontline combat, but might be deemed acceptable for local defense within a lightday of a homebase (though a more multirole runabout would still seem a better option), as even if you do survive, a seat-only fighter or pod isn't really desirable for more than a day or two)
The biggest concerns with manned fighters rather than drone fighters is that they basically a guaranteed suicide mission against starships (shuttles, opposing fighters and armed freighters could be fair game though), making them unpalettable for frontline combat, but might be deemed acceptable for local defense within a lightday of a homebase (though a more multirole runabout would still seem a better option), as even if you do survive, a seat-only fighter or pod isn't really desirable for more than a day or two)
One of the basic issues with all Sci-Fi fighter craft is the fact that here on Earth, aircraft are operating in "air" (hence the name) and that has far less resistance to movement than a vehicle operating on the ground or on (or in) an ocean.
Atomic Rockets (referred to my many here over the years) http://www.projectrho.com/rocketstub.html is an excellent place to go to understand the physics in general.
The issue in space is that all spacecraft are operating in the same medium - a near vacuum. So long as the power to mass ratio is the same, a large ship should be able to do many of the same things as a small ship - save anything that might rip it apart from torque or other stress.
A large ship can support more power, more weapons, denser/heavier armor, better sensors/ECM, more supplies and have more room for it's crew. If you don't need a long-range ship, you reduce the habitability and consumables and reduce the overall size/cost of the ship.
Problems come up when you try to scale this down to a "snub-fighter" (in Star Wars terms) as such small craft can't come close to the potential of a Star Destroyer in terms of power. They - technically - should be no faster and would be useless when fighting a large ship.
The only exception I can think of is if there are weapons (like missiles/torpedoes) available that can balance out the small craft's disadvantages. Even then, the bigger ship should be able to carry counter-measures (both active and passive) that would render that advantage moot...
I played SFB back in ancient times and yes - they were somewhat overpowered in that game. There were counter-measures (ECM/ECCM - Gatling phasers etc...) but, for the most part, they were viewed as attrition units. Many were not expected to return to their mothership and you have to ask if that makes any sense at all for anyone other than a despotic empire?
Atomic Rockets (referred to my many here over the years) http://www.projectrho.com/rocketstub.html is an excellent place to go to understand the physics in general.
The issue in space is that all spacecraft are operating in the same medium - a near vacuum. So long as the power to mass ratio is the same, a large ship should be able to do many of the same things as a small ship - save anything that might rip it apart from torque or other stress.
A large ship can support more power, more weapons, denser/heavier armor, better sensors/ECM, more supplies and have more room for it's crew. If you don't need a long-range ship, you reduce the habitability and consumables and reduce the overall size/cost of the ship.
Problems come up when you try to scale this down to a "snub-fighter" (in Star Wars terms) as such small craft can't come close to the potential of a Star Destroyer in terms of power. They - technically - should be no faster and would be useless when fighting a large ship.
The only exception I can think of is if there are weapons (like missiles/torpedoes) available that can balance out the small craft's disadvantages. Even then, the bigger ship should be able to carry counter-measures (both active and passive) that would render that advantage moot...
I played SFB back in ancient times and yes - they were somewhat overpowered in that game. There were counter-measures (ECM/ECCM - Gatling phasers etc...) but, for the most part, they were viewed as attrition units. Many were not expected to return to their mothership and you have to ask if that makes any sense at all for anyone other than a despotic empire?
Old fan-published manuals had "Killer Bee" attack pods, which were fighter sleds for the worker bees.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Energy_matrix
The Condensed Energy Matrix from the Druoda series 5 long-range tactical armor unit in the ep ST:VOY S5E25 'WarHead' is stated to be an "extremely dense power matrix, which the merchant Onquanii claimed was capable of powering a fleet of starships, and that it was worth a thousand dilithium crystals"
Energy Storage Technology like the Condensed Energy Matrix from the "Druoda series 5 long-range tactical armor unit", if you can mass produce energy storage like that, then you can potentially fill up a "Snub Fighter" with Enough Batteries that it can have enough power to challenge much larger stronger ships and still have enough energy to fight / fly and recharge the energy storage systems over time.
They also need to stop fighting at point blank range and start fighting BVR where they can avoid shots from the larger ships.
I'm talking distances of light-seconds where you are close enough to hit them with your STL Phasers / Beam Weapons, yet far enough that the latency of travel isn't that bad that your larger ships can easily avoid it.
The Condensed Energy Matrix from the Druoda series 5 long-range tactical armor unit in the ep ST:VOY S5E25 'WarHead' is stated to be an "extremely dense power matrix, which the merchant Onquanii claimed was capable of powering a fleet of starships, and that it was worth a thousand dilithium crystals"
Energy Storage Technology like the Condensed Energy Matrix from the "Druoda series 5 long-range tactical armor unit", if you can mass produce energy storage like that, then you can potentially fill up a "Snub Fighter" with Enough Batteries that it can have enough power to challenge much larger stronger ships and still have enough energy to fight / fly and recharge the energy storage systems over time.
They also need to stop fighting at point blank range and start fighting BVR where they can avoid shots from the larger ships.
I'm talking distances of light-seconds where you are close enough to hit them with your STL Phasers / Beam Weapons, yet far enough that the latency of travel isn't that bad that your larger ships can easily avoid it.
And they didn't call them Wasps? come on.
And if you're worried about battles, you can always frame them correctly:
Then show tactical overlays for them fighting at distance
Code Geass did that really well for showing Tactical Overlays of the entire fleet moving about with proper symbology.
Then show tactical overlays for them fighting at distance
Code Geass did that really well for showing Tactical Overlays of the entire fleet moving about with proper symbology.
One problem with this concept is: Why not load a full-on Starship a similar power system? Boom - almost impenetrable shields (in theory) and insanely powerful weapons (also, in theory)...
Contemporary CG makes bigger battles like this possible, and contemporary drones suggest the future will be full of them, not fighters. Trek is choosing to ignore the WWII battleship warfare it was founded on for a new (unsustainable?) approach (not every ship engagement will have a season finale budget).
In-universe, drones come in and out of fashion depending on the capabilities of the ships. Different classes of cloaking devices/anti-cloak sensors are similar. It's the never-ending ebb and flow of the arms race where ships usually overwhelm drones, making drones usually ineffective and wasteful, until they're not again.
In times of desperation, (i.e. two ships against 30) drones/fighters are a Hail Mary, but for the most part, they're cannon fodder. Both the Discovery and Enterprise will need a whole fleet of new support craft, and, in the case of the converted shuttles, pilots too.
In-universe, drones come in and out of fashion depending on the capabilities of the ships. Different classes of cloaking devices/anti-cloak sensors are similar. It's the never-ending ebb and flow of the arms race where ships usually overwhelm drones, making drones usually ineffective and wasteful, until they're not again.
In times of desperation, (i.e. two ships against 30) drones/fighters are a Hail Mary, but for the most part, they're cannon fodder. Both the Discovery and Enterprise will need a whole fleet of new support craft, and, in the case of the converted shuttles, pilots too.
Sure, if you want your StarShip to be operated by a bare bones crew with no luxuries. Usually you want to be well rounded with your spaceship and prefer to have more amenities in StarFleet. A "Fighter Craft" / Snub Fighter is purpose built with 1-4 pilots and is designed to min max damage per volume while meeting specified travel range / shields.
And Shield Emitters, regardless of type (Hull integrated or Deflector Dish) can only emit a FINITE amount of energy at any given time, the capacity of energy emission / maintaining shields isn't infinite. Same with Energy Weapon emitters. You can only send a finite amount of energy through it before you burn it out as emphasized on the Defiant where they memorialized their spent power cells.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20090521170355&path-prefix=en
Every energy emitting device has a normal regular throughput curve when you chart it on a graph, if you go above a certain thresh-hold, it'll start doing slow damage to itself that accumulates over time. If you push it too far, you may burn it out right then and there.
Same applies to Over Clocking CPU's, same with LASER Diodes, same with many things that channel energy.
With Hacking, Jamming, Spoofing of info, tricking of AI routines. I bet drones will have it's place; but it's going to be the combination of Man & Machine that will make the best & most powerful offensive force.
Not just depending wholly on cheap drones to do your bidding.
But having Fighter Pilots with AI drone backup flying alongside and fighting.
Not just depending wholly on cheap drones to do your bidding.
But having Fighter Pilots with AI drone backup flying alongside and fighting.
We need to not oversell man and undersell machine. Hacking, jamming, spoofing info, etc could be done to ships as well, but it’s hard. No reason it shouldn’t be with drones either. And they don’t need to be cheap. Well, not for the Federation who wouldn’t mind in investing in expensive drones if it meant saving lives.
I think it’s more a matter of can the drones match the ship speeds/shields/weapons/countermeasures.
Fighters are a relic of our era, but will disappear in the next century. They can’t handle the g-forces or see/act/think as quickly as AI’s.
Going by the MSDs of both ships the Galaxy-Class is ten decks tall (12 if you include the injector assemblies) whilst the Defiant-Class is just three decks tall.
There are always way to bypass AI / feed it bad data / trick it. I'd rather have humans always in control, even on site at the battle site. Never fully trust AI, we must over see it's actions and keep it on a leash.
Humans can also be tricked/bypassed/fed bad data too.
The main advantage of drone fighters (at least by the 24th C, voice controlled via prompts on a preloaded script from a designated source rather than true AI - think the Prometheus dialled up to dozens to hundreds) is avoiding the "suicide mission" inherent in manned fighters, even if they are a viable platform at all (dubious in frontline terms).
The main advantage of drone fighters (at least by the 24th C, voice controlled via prompts on a preloaded script from a designated source rather than true AI - think the Prometheus dialled up to dozens to hundreds) is avoiding the "suicide mission" inherent in manned fighters, even if they are a viable platform at all (dubious in frontline terms).
For the real world explanation..
1. have the budget for a large cgi battle, and there being used to Bulk Up the screen..
2. Drones are everywhere Right Now.. saying in the future they Don't use drones is kind of silly.. so in another "reset, or Update" to the trek universe, drones and small fighters are used
3. if you look at the "Concept Art" for the Kelvin movies, there's a fighter conscept that I think they wanted to use in Beyond to protect the starbase.. but didn't use, it was a small one man fighter.. so, My thinking is, The execs probably think that the kelvin universe is dead, so there craming stuff they wanted to use into Prime Time..
4. #1 said that she stoped by the store and picked up a buschell of fighters, so there not "Normal Equipment"
I liked the battle, but a few things..
It didn't move.. at all.. Disco and Enterprise just seamed stationary.. they should have been atleast impulse doing twists and turns, ala the battle from Star Trek Nemisis.. Even the Ultimate Computer battle had warp manuevars..
1. have the budget for a large cgi battle, and there being used to Bulk Up the screen..
2. Drones are everywhere Right Now.. saying in the future they Don't use drones is kind of silly.. so in another "reset, or Update" to the trek universe, drones and small fighters are used
3. if you look at the "Concept Art" for the Kelvin movies, there's a fighter conscept that I think they wanted to use in Beyond to protect the starbase.. but didn't use, it was a small one man fighter.. so, My thinking is, The execs probably think that the kelvin universe is dead, so there craming stuff they wanted to use into Prime Time..
4. #1 said that she stoped by the store and picked up a buschell of fighters, so there not "Normal Equipment"
I liked the battle, but a few things..
It didn't move.. at all.. Disco and Enterprise just seamed stationary.. they should have been atleast impulse doing twists and turns, ala the battle from Star Trek Nemisis.. Even the Ultimate Computer battle had warp manuevars..
I agree, the Camera had bad choregography, it didn't show a moving battle, it felt stationary for the most part for the 2x big ships while the fighters / drones were screens for the big ship.
The no-movement thing bothered me a lot. How are they making maneuver Delta-4 when they’re literally not moving?
That bothered me almost as much as the fact that they were, what, five feet apart from each other — wtf? These ships battle at warp speed, torpedoes travel at warp speed, phasers travel at light speed. Blasts from torpedo explosions alone should take handfuls of drones/shuttles each, and explosions of starships should take half the fleet, at the ranges they’re firing at each other.
That bothered me almost as much as the fact that they were, what, five feet apart from each other — wtf? These ships battle at warp speed, torpedoes travel at warp speed, phasers travel at light speed. Blasts from torpedo explosions alone should take handfuls of drones/shuttles each, and explosions of starships should take half the fleet, at the ranges they’re firing at each other.
Last edited:
Similar threads
