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Spoilers Avengers: Endgame grade and discussion thread

How do you rate Avengers: Endgame?


  • Total voters
    191
^^^
Given this is supposed to be a comic book, I'd have no issue with a form of resurrection as it happens ALL THE TIME in superhero comics from both Marvel and DC. It's not the real world here. ;)

...however...

Here's the thing though; so far one of the MCU's main selling point for a lot of fans is precisely that it *doesn't* indulge in the kind of cyclical-reboot/kill-a-character-then-bring-them-back-10-months-later nonsense that helped make the genre such an ungodly, impenetrable mess in print.

Thus far actions have had consequences, the stakes are real within the narrative, and time goes on, things change. I like that and I want it to continue since now, Iron Man's death and the defeat of Thanos are a part of the lore and the history of the world and as we've already seen in the FFH trailer, will continue to inform future storytelling.

Well said. Stark's death should be permanent---including his not retuning in AI form, lest--as Reverend accurately points out--the MCU becomes like the worst of the print versions where Norman Osborn died....but he didn't, Jason Todd died...but not really...and on and on. Any dramatic edge is lost when something other than a rational plot (e.g., fan service) drives a single film or a franchise.
 
Here's the thing though; so far one of the MCU's main selling point for a lot of fans is precisely that it *doesn't* indulge in the kind of cyclical-reboot/kill-a-character-then-bring-them-back-10-months-later nonsense that helped make the genre such an ungodly, impenetrable mess in print.
If you don't mind, both Bucky and Phil Coulson would like to have a word.
 
If you don't mind, both Bucky and Phil Coulson would like to have a word.

Bucky's "death" played into his storyline in the comics. Its kind of an important part of Cap's backstory. And as for Coulson...

Now our Coulson really is dead. I do think that Sarge is going to be filling that role somehow, but the MCU and AoS are now only somewhat kinda sorta tangentially connected.

After all, it appears the snap did not happen in AoS.

Does that mean that I don't think that Coulson's death cheapened what happened to him in Avengers? Absolutely. I've enjoyed AoS, but it doesn't mean I would have made the same decisions they made, starting with focusing the show on Coulson. I honestly would have picked Hill. But, the last time I got paid for creative work was some time ago and it had nothing to do with writing or Marvel, so that means nothing.

Still... All of that doesn't mean that they need to bring back Tony.
 
Bucky's "death" played into his storyline in the comics. Its kind of an important part of Cap's backstory. And as for Coulson...

Now our Coulson really is dead. I do think that Sarge is going to be filling that role somehow, but the MCU and AoS are now only somewhat kinda sorta tangentially connected.

After all, it appears the snap did not happen in AoS.

Does that mean that I don't think that Coulson's death cheapened what happened to him in Avengers? Absolutely. I've enjoyed AoS, but it doesn't mean I would have made the same decisions they made, starting with focusing the show on Coulson. I honestly would have picked Hill. But, the last time I got paid for creative work was some time ago and it had nothing to do with writing or Marvel, so that means nothing.

Still... All of that doesn't mean that they need to bring back Tony.
a) I do not think they should bring back Tony from a story or character standpoint.
b) From a logistical standpoint, I don't think they should bring back Tony because I'm sure they would be happy to not have to back a dump truck of money up to his door for 15 minutes of screentime.
c) That said, for half a century Bucky's death was NOT part of the story. When I was big into comics in the 90s and 2000s, there were 2 deaths that were unassailable: Uncle Ben and Bucky. And then Ed Brubaker got an idea...
 
I've enjoyed AoS, but it doesn't mean I would have made the same decisions they made, starting with focusing the show on Coulson. I honestly would have picked Hill.

I think the producers of How I Met Your Mother would have had a thing or three to say about that.
 
c) That said, for half a century Bucky's death was NOT part of the story. When I was big into comics in the 90s and 2000s, there were 2 deaths that were unassailable: Uncle Ben and Bucky. And then Ed Brubaker got an idea...

Fair enough. I forgot that point.

I think the producers of How I Met Your Mother would have had a thing or three to say about that.

Ignoring the fact that I think HIMYM should have ended like three seasons earlier, for some odd reason I thought there was no overlap between the shows. I stand corrected. But, I still think Hill leading SHIELD would have made more sense than the whole TAHITI thing. But, they didn't ask me. ;)
 
c) That said, for half a century Bucky's death was NOT part of the story. When I was big into comics in the 90s and 2000s, there were 2 deaths that were unassailable: Uncle Ben and Bucky. And then Ed Brubaker got an idea...
Here's the thing though, as per the intent of the script, Bucky didn't "die" falling off that train, anymore than Steve "died" ramming the Valkyrie into the ice. The intent was always that he'd most likely return as The Winter Soldier in the next movie, hence the inclusion of the scene of Zola experimenting on him. We never saw him hit the ground, we never saw a body.
Whether the outside world thought either of them were dead is immaterial since it's baked into the plot, not a later retcon.

Coulson is an exception because 1) it's a TV project which has thus far been entirely ignored by the movies 2) They needed an established fan favourite to hook in the MCU fans that might not stick around long enough to discover that the show is really about Quake. And 3) he's Coulson, deal with it!
 
And, honestly, Coulson died just as we were getting to know him. People were mad Whedon pulled a Wash on him, so I think people were more forgiving because we wanted to see more of him.
 
And, honestly, Coulson died just as we were getting to know him. People were mad Whedon pulled a Wash on him, so I think people were more forgiving because we wanted to see more of him.
To be fair to Whedon, Coulson's death in the story was mandated by Kevin Feige before Whedon was even a part of the project. However, Whedon accepts the fact that he will forever be blamed for Coulson's death.
 
To be fair to Whedon, Coulson's death in the story was mandated by Kevin Feige before Whedon was even a part of the project. However, Whedon accepts the fact that he will forever be blamed for Coulson's death.
That is fair, but at the time, we didn't know that and of course the knee-jerk reaction is to blame the guy who is notorious for killing fan favorites.
 
If they do bring dead characters back, I hope they do it in a way that narratively justifies it and not just for the sake of putting celebrity faces back on screen.

It'll be interesting to see if they use Captain America in future movies, and if so, will he be 80, or will they find a way to de-age him?
 
Steve has been Mr. Self Sacrifice from the off; so that's not his arc. His arc is finding his place in the world. He tried the Army, SHIELD, the Avengers before finally being ready to settle down and getting the happy ending he always deserved. And it's not like it was an inability or anything, it was an unwillingness to truly engage with the world he'd dedicated his life to.

It's not a coincidence that the calls for Steve to "get himself a life" got louder and louder.

More than anything else, Stark had to learn the meaning of sacrifice from Steve, as it was not a natural trait in Stark at all.

Not sure about that he specifically needed Steve for that, his whole arc since IM went in that direction before ever meeting Steve. I'd say Tony would have flown that nuke into the wormhole even without that whole "lying down on the wire"-speech. IMO Tony's being willing to sacrifice himself in Endgame wasn't so different than back in Avengers - then and now, it was the only way, and he never shirked away from what was needed to be done.

And I'm not even factoring a "sacrifice of the 2nd chance at happiness" (see below) in here because in that situation he knew, he had to take up the gauntlet to save everyone else, incl Morgan. There was no real choice between living in happiness and death (for everyone). I think that choice was made way earlier when he decided to go back to the Compound with the working time-anchor (and recorded the farewell-message). But as Pepper said, even that moment was built up to by all the previous movies.

I'd rather turn the tables: Steve had to learn the meaning of living for something (beyond being "a laboratory experiment"), of putting his own happiness at least on equal standing, of having something worth sacrificing everything for - and Tony showed him that. Actually, I'm not so sure the two characters are so dissimilar in that regard (and the guilt complexes that have guilt complexes of their own). Granted, they come from contrary points in life, but both their arcs involved finding meaning and purpose in their lives.

I still hope we'll eventually learn what Steve did in the past and whether he created a different timeline by going back or whether he went back to "ours" and just spent his life hiding (which would contradict everything we know about him, leaving Bucky to suffer at Hydra's hands etc). I like to imagine Steve and Peggy, a rescued Bucky, and Howard Stark (incl his eventual family) and Jarvis (and his wife) to be live happily ever after, Hydra destroyed etc. *g* Maybe the Bucky and Sam-series will shed some light, dropping some soundbites.

Agreed. I would've been disappointed if Tony's arc ended with retirement/mentorship because that leaves the door open for easily returning to the status quo. Tony was so very desperate to protect the world and that was clear since his solo movies, let alone the Avenger movies. He had to die. Like Reverend said, not only did he have to sacrifice his life, he had to sacrifice the second chance at happiness with his family.

And I think that's why they made it quite clear with Tony that he was actually dead. We saw him die, we saw the arc reactor go dark (which wasn't even connected to his body/heart's function by that time - but still powerful imagery driving the point home). I have to admit that I actually grieved, granted, it's a fictional character, but even knowing it would be RDJ's last MCU movie (and at the latest, from the moment Morgan appeared on the screen, it was obvious they were going to go down that road), the reaction was still real.

So, bringing Tony back via the multiverse would cheapen the effect of Endgame, even bringing him back as AI... for whom? The only characters with AI-support are right now Rhodey and Peter... I don't see a Rhodey movie on the horizon (too much of a side-kick), and Peter has to learn to stand on his own feet. Negating his grief by way of an AI that Tony just conveniently worked on would be cheating.
 
I agree it would cheapen his death, with the caveat if the story justification were really good and they really earned it it would be okay.

Also I agree, if Tony Stark (Fun fact: I wrote Ned by mistake the first time) wasn't dead, it wouldn't make sense for his character not to come back for the first huge threat.

Now I'm picturing Ned and Tony Stark meeting in the afterlife. "My death wasn't as noble as yours, but now my kids collectively rule the world."
 
I agree it would cheapen his death, with the caveat if the story justification were really good and they really earned it it would be okay.

Also I agree, if Tony Stark (Fun fact: I wrote Ned by mistake the first time) wasn't dead, it wouldn't make sense for his character not to come back for the first huge threat.

Now I'm picturing Ned and Tony Stark meeting in the afterlife. "My death wasn't as noble as yours, but now my kids collectively rule the world."
Tony (shouting down to Earth): „Morgan, honey, you’re not 21 yet, so Ned is holding Daddy‘s beer instead!“
 
Now I'm picturing Ned and Tony Stark meeting in the afterlife. "My death wasn't as noble as yours, but now my kids collectively rule the world."

*g* I've spent the last few weeks, from before season 8 of GoT to the release of Endgame and beyond with the thought: "Starks rule".

Note to myself: Need to get this on a t-shirt...
 
I'm honestly surprised I haven't seen more memes and what not regarding the two different Stark families, especially in such close proximity to their respective franchises' ends.
 
I've never understood the complaint that resurrecting a character ruins their death. As long as there isn't time travel involved, then it still happened, the character still did what they did, and made the choices that they made, even the death itself is reversed.
 
I've never understood the complaint that resurrecting a character ruins their death.
Depends how long the dead dude is out of action. When it’s only three days, the whole “He died for us” thing feels like a weaselly bait-and-switch.
 
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