So I probably haven't heard "Believe" in the wild in at least 15 years. Well, within four days of discussing it here, I just had to suffer through the whole thing while standing in line at the grocery store. I blame you all! 
Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer
- Thread starter tomalak301
- Start date
Season 4 Riley was Buffy's attempt at a normal relationship with somebody who knows she's a slayer and can handle it. I especially like the way he decked Parker. They kind of move him in different directions later, personality wise.
@tomalak301 what do you think of Willow’s new friend, Tara?
She’s an interesting character. She hasn’t really been featured that much but what I’ve seen from her I do like. It gives Willow someone in common with what she is going through.
This Year's Girl
After a stretch of episodes that felt borderline boring/melodramatic, Faith does indeed bring some life back to the show. I wasn't surprised Faith returned, but I was actually surprised they brought back the Mayor. I love how Dushku and Groaner have the ability to chew the scenery in a fun kind of demented way. This episode was somewhat set up for part 2, but it was terrific set up. That's twice now as well where Buffy and Faith fight and it's amazing.
I'm watching part 2 and know that the device that was used switched bodies. I don't know what year the movie Face/Off came out, but it looks like this will be Buffy's version of that. Also, I'm kinda afraid I won't know the significance of 5 X 5 until I see Angel, and I'm late in the season now where I'm committed to not seeing the Angel part of this crossover until I am watching the series full time.
After a stretch of episodes that felt borderline boring/melodramatic, Faith does indeed bring some life back to the show. I wasn't surprised Faith returned, but I was actually surprised they brought back the Mayor. I love how Dushku and Groaner have the ability to chew the scenery in a fun kind of demented way. This episode was somewhat set up for part 2, but it was terrific set up. That's twice now as well where Buffy and Faith fight and it's amazing.
I'm watching part 2 and know that the device that was used switched bodies. I don't know what year the movie Face/Off came out, but it looks like this will be Buffy's version of that. Also, I'm kinda afraid I won't know the significance of 5 X 5 until I see Angel, and I'm late in the season now where I'm committed to not seeing the Angel part of this crossover until I am watching the series full time.
Who Are You
I've mentioned a few times in this thread the series Orphan Black. One of the things I loved about that series was Tatiana Maslany's acting, when she had to play a clone playing another clone. I'm not an actor but I would think something like that would be insanely hard to do. I bring that up because this episode was kind of the non-clone take on that, with Geller having to play Faith (somewhat) playing Buffy. The same goes for Dushku, and I think both actresses did a phenomenal job with that. Gellar got Faith's mannerisms down pretty good. Dushku didn't really do all that much but what she got I think she nailed.
I'm actually looking forward to following Faith's arc on Angel when I get to it. You could see when she saw what was happening on the news, something clicked and her defending the people at the church was the start of maybe a nice redemption arc for her. I think Angel is the right place to do it too because it's a darker series, and you can really delve into that dark complicated soul that is Faith and considering these writers, I think they could do it rather well.
I haven't talked about Willow's storyline with Tara that much, but @Janeway’s Girl asked and I think this is the perfect episode to bring it up. Tara played a much bigger part here than she has so far, and establishing that she is a witch helped make this episode a little more plausible in that regard. Of course this being a fantastical show dealing in magic, I'm giving the show some favors when it comes to this, but I'm actually liking where that storyline is going. I've actually been reading some comments saying that there is more than a friend vibe to the characters that they could be in a lesbian relationship, and I honestly wasn't sure if I wanted to bring that up. I am picking up those vibes, but there are times when I wish Friends can be friends and it didn't have to go in that direction. I don't care if it does go in that direction or not, I just hope it's written well, and so far I do like what I see.
I've mentioned a few times in this thread the series Orphan Black. One of the things I loved about that series was Tatiana Maslany's acting, when she had to play a clone playing another clone. I'm not an actor but I would think something like that would be insanely hard to do. I bring that up because this episode was kind of the non-clone take on that, with Geller having to play Faith (somewhat) playing Buffy. The same goes for Dushku, and I think both actresses did a phenomenal job with that. Gellar got Faith's mannerisms down pretty good. Dushku didn't really do all that much but what she got I think she nailed.
I'm actually looking forward to following Faith's arc on Angel when I get to it. You could see when she saw what was happening on the news, something clicked and her defending the people at the church was the start of maybe a nice redemption arc for her. I think Angel is the right place to do it too because it's a darker series, and you can really delve into that dark complicated soul that is Faith and considering these writers, I think they could do it rather well.
I haven't talked about Willow's storyline with Tara that much, but @Janeway’s Girl asked and I think this is the perfect episode to bring it up. Tara played a much bigger part here than she has so far, and establishing that she is a witch helped make this episode a little more plausible in that regard. Of course this being a fantastical show dealing in magic, I'm giving the show some favors when it comes to this, but I'm actually liking where that storyline is going. I've actually been reading some comments saying that there is more than a friend vibe to the characters that they could be in a lesbian relationship, and I honestly wasn't sure if I wanted to bring that up. I am picking up those vibes, but there are times when I wish Friends can be friends and it didn't have to go in that direction. I don't care if it does go in that direction or not, I just hope it's written well, and so far I do like what I see.
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Honestly, thinking on it some more, I think you'll be fine not seeing Five by Five & Sanctuary until your Angel binge.
The thing to keep in mind is that while, yeah, some fans watched both shows many didn't. For years Angel was like Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Legends of Tomorrow and Agents of SHIELD. The franchise's redheaded stepchild spin-off that started rough (and in Angel's case a bit rudderless, with no "The Master"-style Big Bad to give the show any feeling of forward momentum until the final five episodes of its 22 episode long debut season) and eventually got significantly better but never gained back all the viewers that abandoned it before it grew the beard. Buffy switching networks while Angel remained on The WB certainly didn't help it either.
Like Deep Space Nine and, someday in the future, Legends of Tomorrow and Seasons 4+ of Agents of SHIELD, Angel eventually found its geek audience thanks to DVDs and streaming. Thanks in part to the one glorious benefit of being a franchise spin-off that no one's watching: you get to do whatever the fuck you want because the suits are too busy paying attention to Next Gen & Voyager, the other Arrowverse shows and The Defenders to care what you're doing. The showrunners were pretty much left alone to be as bold and ambitious as they wanted with few if any notes or executive meddling. Like with DS9, some fans even consider it Angel to be the more consistent and superior show, although (as with anything) your mileage may vary.
This is my really long-winded way of saying that a not small portion of the fandom never saw any of the Faith stuff from Angel and understood Buffy: Season 7 just fine.
Here's the ratings for both shows for context (in millions). Season 1 was the only season to reach the 4.6-5.3 million viewer heights of Buffy at the peak of its popularity. Hell, Angel: Season 4 (the season that crosses over with Buffy: Season 7) didn't even reach the amount of viewers that Buffy's midseason replacement first season received. Angel's final season went up in viewership, but only due to being fans' only place to get their Buffyverse fix at that point. Angel: Season 5 was beloved by those that jumped over to watch it (it's one of the most popular seasons in the entire Buffyverse), which also helped Seasons 2-4 retroactively find an audience as Buffy fans then backtracked on DVD.
Buffy
Season 1....3.7
Season 2....5.2
Season 3....5.3
Season 4....5.1
Season 5....4.6
Season 6....4.3
Season 7....3.9
Angel
Season 1....4.8
Season 2....4.2
Season 3....4.2
Season 4....3.65
Season 5....3.97
The thing to keep in mind is that while, yeah, some fans watched both shows many didn't. For years Angel was like Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Legends of Tomorrow and Agents of SHIELD. The franchise's redheaded stepchild spin-off that started rough (and in Angel's case a bit rudderless, with no "The Master"-style Big Bad to give the show any feeling of forward momentum until the final five episodes of its 22 episode long debut season) and eventually got significantly better but never gained back all the viewers that abandoned it before it grew the beard. Buffy switching networks while Angel remained on The WB certainly didn't help it either.
Like Deep Space Nine and, someday in the future, Legends of Tomorrow and Seasons 4+ of Agents of SHIELD, Angel eventually found its geek audience thanks to DVDs and streaming. Thanks in part to the one glorious benefit of being a franchise spin-off that no one's watching: you get to do whatever the fuck you want because the suits are too busy paying attention to Next Gen & Voyager, the other Arrowverse shows and The Defenders to care what you're doing. The showrunners were pretty much left alone to be as bold and ambitious as they wanted with few if any notes or executive meddling. Like with DS9, some fans even consider it Angel to be the more consistent and superior show, although (as with anything) your mileage may vary.
This is my really long-winded way of saying that a not small portion of the fandom never saw any of the Faith stuff from Angel and understood Buffy: Season 7 just fine.
Here's the ratings for both shows for context (in millions). Season 1 was the only season to reach the 4.6-5.3 million viewer heights of Buffy at the peak of its popularity. Hell, Angel: Season 4 (the season that crosses over with Buffy: Season 7) didn't even reach the amount of viewers that Buffy's midseason replacement first season received. Angel's final season went up in viewership, but only due to being fans' only place to get their Buffyverse fix at that point. Angel: Season 5 was beloved by those that jumped over to watch it (it's one of the most popular seasons in the entire Buffyverse), which also helped Seasons 2-4 retroactively find an audience as Buffy fans then backtracked on DVD.
Buffy
Season 1....3.7
Season 2....5.2
Season 3....5.3
Season 4....5.1
Season 5....4.6
Season 6....4.3
Season 7....3.9
Angel
Season 1....4.8
Season 2....4.2
Season 3....4.2
Season 4....3.65
Season 5....3.97
Superstar
What in the name of Johnathen was that episode? It wasn't as bad as Beer Bad, but in a season that feels like it's dragging it's feet, this episode didn't really help considering how insignificant it was. This was filler in a bad way. Also, Riley is probably less interesting than watching Paint Dry. I'm not really a fan of this series really going full boar on this relationship because I feel like I am starting to miss Buffy, as in, our Bazooka carrying, adorable words coming out of her mouth Buffy. I actually agree with what @JirinPanthosa said regarding the start of this relationship, but in delving deeper into it, I feel like the Buffy we know and love has gone missing. Heck even in the Faith episodes at the beginning she's all like "We're going to use force to get Riley Out" and he just isn't that interesting to carry a story. Also, I saw this comment somewhere and I'm starting to agree with it. I'm not sure Blucas is a good actor, at least compared to Gellar.
In terms of Adam, something interesting is going to have to happen soon with that thing. He was introduced, looks like he's starting to build a Vampire army, and in this episode he only gets one scene.
What in the name of Johnathen was that episode? It wasn't as bad as Beer Bad, but in a season that feels like it's dragging it's feet, this episode didn't really help considering how insignificant it was. This was filler in a bad way. Also, Riley is probably less interesting than watching Paint Dry. I'm not really a fan of this series really going full boar on this relationship because I feel like I am starting to miss Buffy, as in, our Bazooka carrying, adorable words coming out of her mouth Buffy. I actually agree with what @JirinPanthosa said regarding the start of this relationship, but in delving deeper into it, I feel like the Buffy we know and love has gone missing. Heck even in the Faith episodes at the beginning she's all like "We're going to use force to get Riley Out" and he just isn't that interesting to carry a story. Also, I saw this comment somewhere and I'm starting to agree with it. I'm not sure Blucas is a good actor, at least compared to Gellar.
In terms of Adam, something interesting is going to have to happen soon with that thing. He was introduced, looks like he's starting to build a Vampire army, and in this episode he only gets one scene.
I love Superstar. It might have not forwarded the main arc of the season.
But that one is mostly meh anyway.
So I take a good alternate reality episode over it .
Making Jonathan the star of the show to the point of changing the main credits sequence is hilarious.
And the advice everyone gets from him helps with character development and is not erased at the end.
I might be one of the few who thinks so, but this episode is way beyond Beer Bad.
But that one is mostly meh anyway.
So I take a good alternate reality episode over it .
Making Jonathan the star of the show to the point of changing the main credits sequence is hilarious.
And the advice everyone gets from him helps with character development and is not erased at the end.
I might be one of the few who thinks so, but this episode is way beyond Beer Bad.
That was pretty cleaver and something I actually liked about it.
Yeah. Superstar is one of my favorites. Strong is definitely a man of many talents.
As Giles would say, "There's a point at which the subtext becomes text." So, yeah, this was Whedon's way of signaling to the audience that Willow and Tara are having sex.
Oh, and the bit where SMG is making faces in the mirror has basically become the show's most iconic scene over the years - for what it's worth.
This is from a spoiler-tag post I made several pages up thread:
As Giles would say, "There's a point at which the subtext becomes text." So, yeah, this was Whedon's way of signaling to the audience that Willow and Tara are having sex.
Oh, and the bit where SMG is making faces in the mirror has basically become the show's most iconic scene over the years - for what it's worth.
Count me in on liking Superstar! It’s a fun episode. I know A New Man was mentioned a while ago but I also like that one too, and obviously the brilliance of Hush.
The arc of the Initiative and Adam is messy but season 4 has some great standalone episodes.
In the end of season commentary on the DVD, Joss Whedon refers to Willow and Tara’s spell as the steamiest sex scene on the show. I happen to agree but I could also be really biased.
The arc of the Initiative and Adam is messy but season 4 has some great standalone episodes.
In the end of season commentary on the DVD, Joss Whedon refers to Willow and Tara’s spell as the steamiest sex scene on the show. I happen to agree but I could also be really biased.
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Yeah I watched that scene and my first thought was something sexual, especially the deep breathing Willow had. Way to send a subtle message there, Whedon.
Not to mention her falling back on the pillow and gasping. 
I love Willow and Tara, and any chance to talk about them makes me feel all giddy. So expect little rambles here and there.
I love Willow and Tara, and any chance to talk about them makes me feel all giddy. So expect little rambles here and there.
Not to mention her falling back on the pillow and gasping.
I love Willow and Tara, and any chance to talk about them makes me feel all giddy. So expect little rambles here and there.
They do have some good chemistry together. One thing I am happy about when it comes to this relationship was it got Willow out of the doldrums of losing Oz pretty quickly. Not really a fan of shows that dwell on things for a long while. 2-3 episodes was enough time for Willow to grieve and move on.
Me too.
I'm watching the next episode, Where the Wild Things Are, and while I'm not done with it, I think I can call this one of my favorite episodes of the season for two reasons.
1) The house being ghost filled was creepy and
2) Giles singing might be my favorite thing that has happened this season. Holy Crap Anthony Head has a voice.
FInished the episode. As far as stand alones go, I actually enjoyed that one. It was fun, with Anya and Xander (Finally, we got Xander carrying an episode this season, he has been sidelined most of the time) and the aforementioned Giles singing. Also, Spike once again added some levity with some great lines. If the Anya and Xander thing breaks down, maybe Spike and Anya might be an item.
1) The house being ghost filled was creepy and
2) Giles singing might be my favorite thing that has happened this season. Holy Crap Anthony Head has a voice.
FInished the episode. As far as stand alones go, I actually enjoyed that one. It was fun, with Anya and Xander (Finally, we got Xander carrying an episode this season, he has been sidelined most of the time) and the aforementioned Giles singing. Also, Spike once again added some levity with some great lines. If the Anya and Xander thing breaks down, maybe Spike and Anya might be an item.
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IIRC, a lot of the issues with the Season 4 story were due to production issues that detracted from the story Wheadon wanted to tell. That said, in the scope of the series it works very well in that the Buffy/Riley romance was the one moment she had of finding a decent guy that supported her was beneficial rather than destructive.
Superstar is one of my favorite episodes. One of the best comedy episodes in the series.
It's a commentary on fanfiction. Jonathan uses a spell to create literal Buffy fanfiction, complete with a Marty Stu.
Nice to get some disagreement on Superstar. Maybe it was an episode I didn’t expect. I could see myself growing into it on rewatches. With all the talk about Mary Sues in the last year this episode took that theme and flipped it on its head. I guess my issue wasn’t really with the episode but maybe where it was placed in the season. We have this stretch where the season feels like it’s dragging to the end and then this episode comes along and it’s... different.
With that said ive been speeding up watching these episodes. Maybe because the season is almost done and in a few weeks I go out of town for a few days and want to get the series done by the end of June, at least. I think my goal is to at least be starting Angel before I leave for Vegas for the Trek convention in the first week in August.
With that said ive been speeding up watching these episodes. Maybe because the season is almost done and in a few weeks I go out of town for a few days and want to get the series done by the end of June, at least. I think my goal is to at least be starting Angel before I leave for Vegas for the Trek convention in the first week in August.
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