I am watching DS9 for the first time (some observations)
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I'm trying to close in on the end of Season One by the end of this week. As of this writing, I am through "The Forsaken". A few comments on some recent episodes:
"The Nagus"- Glad to see some explaration of Quark and Ferengi culture. There's something weirdly refreshing about Quark and his unapologetic deviousness. He's sort of an anti-hero; sort of, in that he's too cowardly to be truly dangerous. Always working an angle, so obvious in his behavior, you end up always knowing what he's about, until he manages to (reluctantly) let his better qualities show.
"Vortex"- Like "The Nagus", the show is starting to explore beyond the Starfleet/Bajor dynamic. We're getting the first minor hints of Odo's origins in the Gamma Quadrant. They're still figuring out how Odo may or may not be vulnerable in his shapeshifting, since he's rendered unconscious by a rockfall when we've already seen a spiked weapon pass effortlessly and harmlessly through his head. Still, the show is starting to stretch itself.
"Battle Lines"- The show is starting to dig into Bajoran religion and the changing dymanics once Sisko becomes involved. His role as emissary still hasn't really come into play yet, but the fateful trip to the Planet of Eternal War (trademark pending) costs the Bajoran people their spiritual leader. The plotline of two sides doomed to live forever locked in combat and unable to ever see anything beyond revenge (for what, we never know) feels like it could've been a decent-to-good TOS episode, but the key element is the loss of Kai Opaka, and all that will come from that.
"The Storyteller"- the second of three straight episodes in which Bajor and its' people drive the story. A decent episode, beginning to establish the O'Brien/Bashir relationship. The story of the Sirah and the Dal'Rok could be taken as an examination of the power of myth, of the need to believe in something greater than ourselves, and the unity that can come from it.
"Progress"- When Kira chooses to burn down Mullibok's house to get him to leave the moon of Jeraddo, it's a real make-or-break moment for her character. You really begin to see that under all the hostility and toughness she tries so hard to exude, Kira ultimately acts out of desperation. She desperately doesn't want to leave Mullibok to die, she desperately doesn't want to be the thing she fought so hard against but has become ("the uniform"), and she is desperate to do what is best for Bajor. We're beginning to see that Kira isn't mean or cruel or uncaring, she is wounded.
"If Wishes Were Horses"- A fairly light episode that could've been a TOS or TNG show with some mild rewriting. Even in the first season, it's become clear that the show is at its' best when it really begins to explore the situations that are unique to its' premise (Bajor, the Cardassians, the Gamma Quadrant), which this episode doesn't really do. Notable for deepening Sisko's affection for baseball, which I know will run the course of the entire series.
"The Forsaken"- I've never been a fan of Lwaxana Troi, but she's good here. She manages to be both a foil to and sympathetic to, Odo. She also gets a lot of comedic mileage over how uncomfortable she makes Odo in her overt romantic interest. The subplot involving the "Pup" entity is fine, but exists mostly to get Lwaxana and Odo stuck together in a turbolift, where they begin to open up to each other and be vulnerable.
...
More to come later, as I finish Season One.
"The Nagus"- Glad to see some explaration of Quark and Ferengi culture. There's something weirdly refreshing about Quark and his unapologetic deviousness. He's sort of an anti-hero; sort of, in that he's too cowardly to be truly dangerous. Always working an angle, so obvious in his behavior, you end up always knowing what he's about, until he manages to (reluctantly) let his better qualities show.
"Vortex"- Like "The Nagus", the show is starting to explore beyond the Starfleet/Bajor dynamic. We're getting the first minor hints of Odo's origins in the Gamma Quadrant. They're still figuring out how Odo may or may not be vulnerable in his shapeshifting, since he's rendered unconscious by a rockfall when we've already seen a spiked weapon pass effortlessly and harmlessly through his head. Still, the show is starting to stretch itself.
"Battle Lines"- The show is starting to dig into Bajoran religion and the changing dymanics once Sisko becomes involved. His role as emissary still hasn't really come into play yet, but the fateful trip to the Planet of Eternal War (trademark pending) costs the Bajoran people their spiritual leader. The plotline of two sides doomed to live forever locked in combat and unable to ever see anything beyond revenge (for what, we never know) feels like it could've been a decent-to-good TOS episode, but the key element is the loss of Kai Opaka, and all that will come from that.
"The Storyteller"- the second of three straight episodes in which Bajor and its' people drive the story. A decent episode, beginning to establish the O'Brien/Bashir relationship. The story of the Sirah and the Dal'Rok could be taken as an examination of the power of myth, of the need to believe in something greater than ourselves, and the unity that can come from it.
"Progress"- When Kira chooses to burn down Mullibok's house to get him to leave the moon of Jeraddo, it's a real make-or-break moment for her character. You really begin to see that under all the hostility and toughness she tries so hard to exude, Kira ultimately acts out of desperation. She desperately doesn't want to leave Mullibok to die, she desperately doesn't want to be the thing she fought so hard against but has become ("the uniform"), and she is desperate to do what is best for Bajor. We're beginning to see that Kira isn't mean or cruel or uncaring, she is wounded.
"If Wishes Were Horses"- A fairly light episode that could've been a TOS or TNG show with some mild rewriting. Even in the first season, it's become clear that the show is at its' best when it really begins to explore the situations that are unique to its' premise (Bajor, the Cardassians, the Gamma Quadrant), which this episode doesn't really do. Notable for deepening Sisko's affection for baseball, which I know will run the course of the entire series.
"The Forsaken"- I've never been a fan of Lwaxana Troi, but she's good here. She manages to be both a foil to and sympathetic to, Odo. She also gets a lot of comedic mileage over how uncomfortable she makes Odo in her overt romantic interest. The subplot involving the "Pup" entity is fine, but exists mostly to get Lwaxana and Odo stuck together in a turbolift, where they begin to open up to each other and be vulnerable.
...
More to come later, as I finish Season One.
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Quote for truth.
Last night (May 23rd), I finished Season One. All in all, I enjoyed it. A few observations:
-The best episodes really are the ones that play into DS9's premise and location. The deeper dive into the Bajorans and their religion is really unique in Star Trek when you consider they're not a galactic superpower. Bajor's collective reaction to Sisko as the Emissary is still largely offscreen, but it's implied that he's starting to have influence (however minute at this point) in Bajoran affairs. As I write this, I realize the writers are beginning to very subtly subvert the Prime Directive, which has always been a plot device at best, anyway.
-I don't really know what people thought of Sisko when DS9 first aired, but he's definitely a very different character from Kirk or Picard. He has a lot of nervous energy that he channels through baseball, and yet he's a capable commander. Sisko steps into a volatile situation that is only compounded by the discovery of the wormhole, and rises to the occasion with the help of his new crew (and the Prophets). I also like that we see him being a father, giving the viewer a chance to see he's also very tender. Even in the first season, there's a clear effort to make Sisko a very distinct character from his predecessors.
-I like the fact that the characters don't always get along. The Starfleet and Bajoran sides take their time in getting acquainted with each other, and there are growing pains along the way. Neither side's way of doing things is necessarily the "right" way, as each side/individual learns to trust the other.
-"Move Along Home" is not as bad as people tend to say it is, but it feels very out of place with the show's overall tone. As I've mentioned in a previous post, it feels like it could've been a TOS episode, as it better fits that series' more overtly Twilight Zone-esque feel.
-Considering he passed away in October 1991, and the show debuted in January 1993, does anyone know what if any influence Roddenberry had (or tried to have), if any, on the show's development. When you factor in the character conflicts that exist and the heavy religious element, there's a big part of me that suspects Roddenberry would've hated this show, but I could be wrong.
...
I've already begun Season Two, having watched "The Homecoming" and part of "The Circle" last night. More on those later.
-The best episodes really are the ones that play into DS9's premise and location. The deeper dive into the Bajorans and their religion is really unique in Star Trek when you consider they're not a galactic superpower. Bajor's collective reaction to Sisko as the Emissary is still largely offscreen, but it's implied that he's starting to have influence (however minute at this point) in Bajoran affairs. As I write this, I realize the writers are beginning to very subtly subvert the Prime Directive, which has always been a plot device at best, anyway.
-I don't really know what people thought of Sisko when DS9 first aired, but he's definitely a very different character from Kirk or Picard. He has a lot of nervous energy that he channels through baseball, and yet he's a capable commander. Sisko steps into a volatile situation that is only compounded by the discovery of the wormhole, and rises to the occasion with the help of his new crew (and the Prophets). I also like that we see him being a father, giving the viewer a chance to see he's also very tender. Even in the first season, there's a clear effort to make Sisko a very distinct character from his predecessors.
-I like the fact that the characters don't always get along. The Starfleet and Bajoran sides take their time in getting acquainted with each other, and there are growing pains along the way. Neither side's way of doing things is necessarily the "right" way, as each side/individual learns to trust the other.
-"Move Along Home" is not as bad as people tend to say it is, but it feels very out of place with the show's overall tone. As I've mentioned in a previous post, it feels like it could've been a TOS episode, as it better fits that series' more overtly Twilight Zone-esque feel.
-Considering he passed away in October 1991, and the show debuted in January 1993, does anyone know what if any influence Roddenberry had (or tried to have), if any, on the show's development. When you factor in the character conflicts that exist and the heavy religious element, there's a big part of me that suspects Roddenberry would've hated this show, but I could be wrong.
...
I've already begun Season Two, having watched "The Homecoming" and part of "The Circle" last night. More on those later.
I'm glad you are enjoying the series. It gets better from here.
As per Roddenberry's influence, he made sure Paramount continued to send checks to his estate. Berman and Piller discussed ideas with him, but I don't think that they got far into development by the time Roddenberry past away. Even at that point, his health (and other problems) meant that he wasn't a capable collaborator. The things that made DS9 distinct were the frustrations of the TNG writers who felt overly restricted by Roddenberry's rules. Some of them, like Ira Steven Behr and Ron Moore, were fans of the original Star Trek series, over which Roddenberry exercised less control and was defined by other showrunners..
Perhaps one of the big influences on the series--perhaps the best--was Brandon Tartikoff. He wanted Berman to do a series about a widowed man and his son living on the frontier in space. It didn't even need to be Star Trek. It was basically a modernization of The Rifleman. This would also stand in contrast to how Roddenberry preferred to portray family.
I can see your point as I was in a similar situation myself.
I watched season 1 of DS9 back in 1997 and found it....quite OK but a typical spin-off, sort of TNG:s minor team to use sports terms.
However, the stupid TV station where I live in Europe which aired the show then decided to stop airing it after season 1. At the same time I discovered Voyager and became an ardent fan of the show until Kes was dumped. Then I lost some of the interest but I still like season 1-3 of that show. The development of Star Trek with Enterprise, The NuTrek movies and the horrible Discovery have also been very dissapointing.
However, watching all of DS9 was something I had in the back of my mind for a long time and some years ago I started to buy the seasons of it on DVD. Problems with the DVD:s I bought (which I have discussed in another thread) caused a standstill in the project for a while but last year I finally got the chance to watch the whole series from beginning to end.
And it was a pleasant experience! An excellent series with great characters which really developed during the seasons, something the whole series did. From the Cardassian-Bajoran conflict all the way to the Dominion war and all that. Really exciting and entertaining!
The characters I liked from the start remained favorites while some which I didn't notice that much developed into favorites during the run of the show.
Some people call DS9 a "dark series". I don't agree with that. OK, there were darker episodes ghere and there, most notably during the Dominion War but there were also lighter episodes here and there to cheer us up. A smart move from the writers.
I'm actually into re-watching the series again (I'm into season 4 now) and I can tell you that you have a wonderful experience ahead of you!
I rewatched TNG recently, mostly for Picard coming later this year. However every time I finish a rewatch, I want to watch DS9. This thread is really doing a number on me as well.
I'm glad you're enjoying the show anyway. DS9 and TNG just slightly behind are my favourite series. I look forward to reading your thoughts on the rest of the series.
I'm glad you're enjoying the show anyway. DS9 and TNG just slightly behind are my favourite series. I look forward to reading your thoughts on the rest of the series.
Babylon 5 may have been a big unacknowledged influence, the new DS9 documentary doesn't make any mention of. I would have liked to have seen something of that controversy covered in the documentary, but its not surprising to me it wasn't. This is one of the major questions or mysteries about DS9, the extent of the influence Babylon 5 had on its development.
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No, it didn't need to.
I hadn't thought about it, but The Rifleman influence makes sense. You can draw a distinct parallel between Lucas & Mark McCain and Benjamin & Jake Sisko. A loving and attentive, widowed father of a young son who is hitting adolescence, helping the locals to keep the peace on the frontier.
The imprint of The Rifleman on "Emissary" is so big that it makes accusations that Babylon 5 was plagiarized look extremely silly.
As well-done as it was, more importantly, "Duet" was a necessary episode. The audience needed to see the Occupation of Bajor from the other side. What on earth could possibly motivate, and attempt to justify, such brutality? In turn, we see how such brutality can create callousness (and even pride) in others. Harris Yulin really sells the "persona" of Gul Darhe'el.
I appreciate that the episode also takes time (briefly) to address the brutality of survival; Kira acknowledges that she did things she regrets in the fight for liberation. These are clearly still a sore subject for her, especially if you consider she has had to justify them to herself even if they seemed wrong.
When the big revelation comes that Darhe'el is Marritza, returning to atone for the crimes of his people, it makes the Cardassians more than just mustache-twirling villains. His need to atone to save his people from themselves, makes you realize that someone mired in some brutality can realize that change is possible, but only if the need to change is recognized. Marritza knows his people will suffer if they don't turn from the brutality, but in himself, he still represents the potential for change and the courage to face one's past, even if one considers oneself to be a coward.
"Duet" is one of the best DS9 episodes.
It is. DS9 was one of the few shows in the 90s addressing topics of international politics like genocide, occupation, and war crimes."Duet" is one of the best DS9 episodes.
Yes.
I'm into Season Two now. I've already finished "The Homecoming" and am partway into "The Circle". Things are a little busy right now, so it may be a couple of days before I can continue watching.
We've seen the first year of life on DS9 post-Occupation, with all its' ups and downs. Now we're seeing Bajor begin to repeat the misdeeds of the Cardassians: violence, harassment, abuses of power. The Circle represents the worst thing the people of Bajor can do; fail to learn from their Cardassian oppressors. One could argue the Circle's misdeeds could be worse because they have the warning of what the Cardassians had done but failed to heed it.
We've seen the first year of life on DS9 post-Occupation, with all its' ups and downs. Now we're seeing Bajor begin to repeat the misdeeds of the Cardassians: violence, harassment, abuses of power. The Circle represents the worst thing the people of Bajor can do; fail to learn from their Cardassian oppressors. One could argue the Circle's misdeeds could be worse because they have the warning of what the Cardassians had done but failed to heed it.
I did this a few years ago as I'd never seen it. It was a revelation . Loved it. A couple of takeaways
- Visually it has held up so well. It could be in production today. It looks tng look so dated
- I think this is the only case in trek where we are able to see a functioning alien family on a weekly basis in Quark's family (correct me if I'm wrong)
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