• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

TNG Child Endangerment?

The USS Odyssey did not put up much of a fight.

Alt Tasha said that her Enterprise, which is the same size as "our" Enterprise, could carry up to 9000 soldiers. With a few thousand prefabricated walls, and 8000 cots, "our" Enterprise could also carry 9000 soldiers if present day became a time of war, after a quick refit.

"Carrying families" was a trick so that the Romulans didn't know that they were in an arms race.
 
Given that the Odyssey's shields were ineffective, it held up for at least several minutes against three ships, and it might have gotten away if not for the Jem'hadar kamikaze run, I rather think it put up a pretty respectable fight.

I still find that combat more compelling than the E-D's swan song in GEN.
 
I really don't see the situation arising that we would hear of there being a warp core aboard. I mean, we never learn whether there's a sickbay aboard a specific section, or a holodeck, or whatever. If it goes to warp (as the saucer does), we can safely presume there's a means for it to do so.

This is just one example, but for the multiple times the warp core is endanger of breaching, we never hear anything about more than one core. We always here something like "the warp core," implying a singular core. If there was another one, we simply would have heard of it. The difference with your examples of sickbay or a holodeck is that we have heard about them (and we know where sickbay is anyway, don't we?). Do you not think it's strange that a second warp core has never been mentioned in TNG?

And as far as evidence that the saucer can travel in warp, are you still just talking about Farpoint? Because I don't think one episode where it is curious how the saucer gets their quicker than the stardrive section trumps the whole rest of the show.

Compare to Voyager, say. There Sternbach again says something about the specs of the ship that never materializes as a plot point: it has two warp cores. But this time, we can see both of them in the MSD! Yet plots involving one warp core going down or getting stolen never make mention of the spare. So there we are forced to go to some effort to explain to ourselves how and why Rick was wrong. No such difficulty with saucer warp!

I never was using non-canonical sources. I am simply using context from the actual show.

Well, the Defiant, obviously. The Galaxy saucer has a lot more blue glow to show for her warp abilities.

What do you mean obviously? The Defiant clearly has warp nacelles. Just because they don't extend out from the rest of the ship doesn't mean that those aren't called nacelles.

The ship's auxiliaries likewise lack nacelles. Both types, and the mothership, have what might charitably be considered cowlings. But since they already prove that size and geometry is irrelevant even to Starfleet (let alone the Federation, the various members of which readily operate nacelle-free ships all through TNG), there's no great need to argue the point. Nacelles, in the cigar shape sense or any other, simply aren't mandatory, and never have been.

Again, I'm not sure why you are using a narrow view. They don't have to be "cigar shape" to be nacelles.
 
The USS Odyssey did not put up much of a fight.

The Odyssey went into danger without non-essential personnel, lasted longer than most ships would have, against a millennia-old super-empire, one that had been spying on the Federation for some time, succeeded in its mission, was only destroyed by a kamikaze attack of a large ship (in the episode), and only blew up after drifting a moment even after that. It was a beast.

It gave Sisko 10 minutes, without shields, and they were successful. I think if we saw 10 minutes of the ship firing and maneuvering, a certain segment of the fanbase would be creaming themselves and yelling “Remember the Odyssey” past Trek’s centennial celebration.
 
The Defiant clearly has warp nacelles. Just because they don't extend out from the rest of the ship doesn't mean that those aren't called nacelles.
That is basically what nacelle means, separate from the fuselage. Defiants engines are intergrate into the body of the ship, no separation.
 
That is basically what nacelle means, separate from the fuselage. Defiants engines are intergrate into the body of the ship, no separation.

I get your point, and I understand the literal term, but I think we're splitting hairs. I think nacelle is a pretty common term to use for the housing that contains warp coils and all the other stuff in there.

But no matter what we call it, it's obvious that the Defiant uses a similar type of propulsion as other Starfleet ships.
 
This is just one example, but for the multiple times the warp core is endanger of breaching, we never hear anything about more than one core.

Because it's that one breaching, doh! What usually endangers the core is the fact of it being used to move the ship at warp, and/or faces battle doing so. The saucer one wouldn't do that in any but two or three of the episodes, none of which has folks firing at it.

The difference with your examples of sickbay or a holodeck is that we have heard about them (and we know where sickbay is anyway, don't we?).

We really don't - that is, the question is incorrect to begin with. When the ship separates in ST:GEN, sickbay is evacuated even though it's the stardrive section that's going to be lost; when the stardrive rescues Crusher in "Arsenal of Freedom", sickbay is there to treat her. No contradiction there: when there's a plot need, any facility can be in any section. No plot need for mentioning the specific bits of the saucer warp drive separately.

Do you not think it's strange that a second warp core has never been mentioned in TNG?

No odder than the utter failure to mention shuttlecraft warp cores.

And as far as evidence that the saucer can travel in warp, are you still just talking about Farpoint? Because I don't think one episode where it is curious how the saucer gets their quicker than the stardrive section trumps the whole rest of the show.

What's this about "trumping"? The rest of the show never even remotely suggests the saucer couldn't do warp. As said, that's just an urban myth.

The saucer travels interstellar distances, or is expected to, in the pilot and in "Arsenal". It is supposed to keep folks in safety when the stardrive fights, which is best accomplished when it has warp drive. And technologically there's no obstacle to it having a warp drive, since there is no shape or other spec identified with that drive in Trek, or any sign that such would be missing from the saucer.

What do you mean obviously? The Defiant clearly has warp nacelles. Just because they don't extend out from the rest of the ship doesn't mean that those aren't called nacelles.

Okay, so then the saucer has nacelles. Just because they don't extend out from the rest of the ship doesn't mean those aren't called nacelles.

Again, I'm not sure why you are using a narrow view. They don't have to be "cigar shape" to be nacelles.

But any shape other than those approved by you is forbidden?

Lack of warp drive on the saucer is equal to lack of shielding on the saucer. Neither thing is ever mentioned. Both can be safely assumed to exist, because that's Star Trek.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Not wishing to get involved into the discussion whether the screen materials indicate the ENT-D might have a saucer section warp core too or not, but I think it would make sense from a design perspective... that even if somehow the stardrive section got lost with all hands the saucer still would have some basic warp capability, to limp home or at the least out of harm's way, even if only with, say, warp 5 or 6 or so.
 
Last edited:
Naturally, Starfleet might have had different reasons behind creating the separable and reattachable saucer, not truly caring about evacuation of civilians. Those reasons might have changed, or Picard himself might have gotten creative, but the hardware might have failed to fully accommodate the new ideas.

Then again, we later learn from VOY that Starfleet at the time was experimenting with ships that split and then go their separate FTL ways. That tech involved pop-up nacelles, but since we separately know that warp doesn't require nacelles...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Another question for the saucer at warp is where the deflector dish is. Without one the first micro meteor could hole the ship. Maybe Guinan keeps the deflector dish behind the bar?
 
Because it's that one breaching, doh! What usually endangers the core is the fact of it being used to move the ship at warp, and/or faces battle doing so. The saucer one wouldn't do that in any but two or three of the episodes, none of which has folks firing at it.

Considering how volatile a breaching warp core could be, you'd think there would be mention at some point about a separate warp core that would also breach once the first one had done so.

What's this about "trumping"? The rest of the show never even remotely suggests the saucer couldn't do warp. As said, that's just an urban myth.

And yet they never say it can either.

The saucer travels interstellar distances, or is expected to, in the pilot and in "Arsenal". It is supposed to keep folks in safety when the stardrive fights, which is best accomplished when it has warp drive. And technologically there's no obstacle to it having a warp drive, since there is no shape or other spec identified with that drive in Trek, or any sign that such would be missing from the saucer.

I will agree that the saucer should be able to travel long distances, since there would always be the chance that the stardrive section will not return for some time, or is even destroyed. But my thinking is that this was not an issue that was really thought out well be the all involved at the beginning of the show, and, like many other things, does not make tons of sense (as time went on, I'm sure many writers basically considered the E-D as a single ship, and never even cared about how it separates).

Based on all other ships which either have nacelles extended from the ship with pylons, or "nacelles" that are housed closer to the hull (like the Defiant), to me the method of propulsion is never in question. As far as I can remember, we never see any Starfleet warpship that has it's warp-capable method of propulsion entirely housed within the ship itself, like it must be if the saucer section is warp-capable.

I think this issue boils down to two thoughts:

1. The saucer has warp because it seems to have traveled by warp one time, no one ever mentions the saucer is not warp-capable, and it would make sense if it could travel in warp when a long distance away from the stardrive section.

2. The saucer does not have warp because it does not have any noticeable "nacelles" like all other warpships seen in Starfleet, there is never a mention of a second warp core, and the evidence to suggest otherwise is vague.

Really, it doesn't matter that much, but I just don't the reasons you state make it automatically capable of warp. But I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here.
 
PART ONE OF TWO:

L. P. Hartley in The Go-Between (1953) wrote "the past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.".

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/L._P._Hartley

In the era of the TNG, AD 2019 would be the past. So if a member of the Enterprise-D crew thinks about Earth in AD 2019 they might think: "AD 2019 is a foreign country, they do things differently there".

So thus we can think that: "The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there", and that is equally true for fictional futures in alternate universes to ours like the era of TNG as it will be for real future eras.

As I write this it is still Memorial Day in the United States of America, a holiday started to honor soldiers of the Union army who died during The Rebellion, or the United States Civil War, and later extended to all deceased United States soldiers. And it is well known fact that in many ways they did things differently during the US Civil War than we do in AD 2019.

W.W. Gist, a veteran of the war, was annoyed by allegedly official statistics claiming that over a third of all persons enlisted in the Union army were under the aged of 19, so he wrote an article, "The Ages of the Soldiers in the Civil War", Iowa Journal of History and Politics, July 1918, pages 387-399, to debunk them.

Gist's statistics do a good job of debunking the exaggerated claims for boys in their middle and upper teens in the Union army, showing that they were only a fraction of what the false statistics claimed, though still significant in numbers. But when it came to the really youngest soldiers in the Union forces, Gist's article does the opposite, and indicates they were much more numerous than the false statistics claimed.

Gist quotes them as saying there were 104,987 soldiers aged fifteen and under, 1,525 aged fourteen and under (thus making 103,462 aged fifteen), 300 aged thirteen and under (thus making 1,225 aged fourteen), 225 aged 12 and under (thus making 75 aged thirteen), 38 aged eleven and under (thus making 187 aged twelve), and 25 aged ten and under (thus making 13 aged eleven).

Gist quotes an official breakdown on the small minority of Union veterans surviving in 1917 and drawing pensions. Most of the older Civil War soldiers and many of the younger ones had died before 1917.

“On June 30, 1917, there were 329,226 survivors of the Civil war enrolled as pensioners. Of this number 38,190 receive pensions on account of general disability. The remaining 291, 036 receive pensions in accordance with their length of service and ages. The table showing their ages in 1917 is as follows:
62 years and under 66….3,113
66 and under 70 ….28,966
70 years and under 75…121,476
75 years and older….137,481
Total: 291,036”

https://historum.com/threads/ages-of-us-civil-war-soldiers.96404/

62 years was the minimum age since 1912 to receive a Civil War pension based solely on age and not on disability.

The 137,481 pensioners aged seventy five and older were all born before June 30, 1842 and were aged over nineteen in 1861 and over twenty three in 1865.

The 121,476 pensioners aged seventy to seventy four were born between July 1, 1841 and June 30, 1847 and were aged about fourteen to eighteen when the war began and about eighteen to twenty three when the war ended.

The 28,966 pensioners aged 66 to 69 were born between July 1, 1847, and June 30, 1851 and were aged between ten and fourteen when the war began and between fourteen and eighteen when the war ended.

The 3,113 pensioners 62 to 65 would have been born between July 1, 1851, and June 30, 1855, and were aged six to ten when the war began and between ten and fourteen when the war ended.

https://historum.com/threads/ages-of-us-civil-war-soldiers.96404/

So when the US Civil War ended in 1865 there were 3,113 service members who would be enrolled to receive pensions by June 1, 1917 and who turned fifteen on June 1, 1866, a year after the fighting was over, or turned fifteen months and years later. It is possible and probable that some of those soldiers enlisted in the Union forces aged thirteen, twelve, eleven, ten, nine, eight, seven, or even six.

Considering that about one fifth of all Union soldiers died during the war from battle wounds, diseases, and other causes, the 3,113 pensioned soldiers in that age range could mean that a total of about 3,891.25 soldiers enlisted age fourteen and under and that about 778.25 of them died during the war.

And i might point out that one of the most humiliating US defeats ever was The Battle of the Wabash or St. Claire's Defeat, November 4, 1791, during the Northwest Indian War against the Western Confederacy. 632 US soldiers were lost in the battle, and most of the survivors were wounded. And no doubt a proportion of the soldiers were musicians, and an unknown proportion of the musicians could have been boys of various ages who were killed or captured for later torture.

At the Little Bighorn, June 25-26, 1876, Custer's 7th Cavalry detachment of about 212 men was totally slaughtered. The Seventh Cavalry as a whole at the Little Big Horn lost a total of 268 killed and 55 wounded, of whom 6 died of their wounds. At the Battle of the Wabash the army was accompanied by about 200 to 250 camp followers (wives, children, laundresses, and prostitutes) who couldn't run as fast as the soldiers and so were almost all killed. Yes, at the Battle of the Wabash the number of civilian women and children with the army who were killed should have been about equal to Custer's detachment at the Little Big Horn.

Yes, they did things differently in the past, and possibly they will do things differently in the future.

PART TWO OF TWO:

Another thing to consider is that in a long and highly episode television series like TOS or TNG, most of the episodes may happen in alternate universes of their own, different from the alternate universes of other episodes.

The creators of early television series were very lax about continuity, and often had episodes contradict other episodes. There are examples of series where fictional dates of the episodes have no connection to the order they were produced or broadcast in; episodes in later seasons might have earlier fictional dates than episodes in earlier seasons. And I don't know if those creators thought about their lax approach to continuity and if they tried to justify it. If the creators of such a television show wanted to justify the weak continuity, and if they were science fiction fans, they might think of alternate universes.

They might think that each and every episode was something that might happen to the protagonists after the initial set up of their situation, and thus was something that would happen to the protagonists in one or more of the countless alternate universes diverging from the beginning of the show. So each episode would be in an alternate universe of its own, except for episodes which were sequels to other episodes.

So if every episode of TNG is in an alternate universe of its own, except for episodes which are sequels and parts of story arcs, most of the situations where the entire Enterprise-D and all its occupants - including civilians, families, and children - were in danger, would be in separate alternate universes of their own. And it is perfectly possible that there were thousands and millions of alternate universes where there never was a single battle or natural force that threatened to destroy the Enterprise-D for every alternate universe where it did experience such danger.

And it is possible that in every alternate universe where the Enterprise-D was in danger even once, the parents of all the children who were aboard at the moment of danger transferred to a starbase or resigned from Starfleet as soon as they could, and so removed their children from the potential dangers of the Enterprise-D.

I know of only three kids who were seen in dangerous situations aboard the Enterprise-D more than once. Many of the dangerous they encountered were in episodes that could have been in alternate universes of their own, separate from the alternate universe of other episodes. Thus those kids could have been endangered only once before their parents took them off the Enterprise in most of their alternate universes also.

But those three kids were seen and in danger in a number of episodes which were part of story arcs and thus were endangered several times during those story arcs. Of course their parents could have taken them off the Enterprise after the first dangerous experience in tens or hundreds of times as many alternate universes as the alternate universes in the story arcs where those kids were endangered more than once.

Those multiply endangered kids were Wesley Crusher, son of Dr. Beverly crusher, Alexander Rozhenko, son of Lt. Worf, and Molly O'Brien, daughter of Miles O'Brien and Keiko O'Brien.
 
Last edited:
The whole idea of having families, children, onboard a ship that is basically a military ship (yes, it is) is totally ludicrous.
To basically put children on the front line of potential conflict with any number of hostile species is cavalier in the extreme, insane really.
A Federation Starship with it's rules of engagement and moral limitations would never destroy an alien ship who had children as part of it's make up, but as has been proved in countless Trek incarnations, alien species don't play by Starfleet rules, and have a moral compass which is completely different.
If you want to have children and serve in Starfleet, don't sign up to five years on a Starship in deep space, serve on a Starbase or something.
If you do sign up to a five year mission and already have kids, just accept that you won't see them grow up.
It's really that simple.
 
Kazon City Ships were riddled with 10s of thousands of children.

Think Astro-Dickensian.

Chakotay bought one down in the Voyager pilot.

Chuckles killed more people in the first minutes of his alliance with Janeway than he did in years as a filthy Maquis terrorist.
 
Kazon City Ships were riddled with 10s of thousands of children.

Think Astro-Dickensian.

Chakotay bought one down in the Voyager pilot.

Chuckles killed more people in the first minutes of his alliance with Janeway than he did in years as a filthy Maquis terrorist.

Been years since I've seen the Voyager pilot and I can't remember Kazon city ships with children
I'll take your word for it
I'll rephrase, Federation starships wouldn't normally take out an enemy vessel if they thought it had loads of children onboard.
I'm sure Picard or Kirk wouldn't
 
The episode with Nog.

All the kids grabbed for a dangling phaser for the honour of killing the traitor Nog.

Apprentice engineers.

The Kazon do not have planets (to live on).

They live in space.
 
For the Galaxy class, in Farpoint it was released at warp, but not warp capable, there are no warp nacelles in it like the promethius seperated saucer.. so it is only capable of Impulse. But it isn't designed as a warp capable seperate ship, but basically a giant life boat!
Serves as a place for civilians and family, and non esential personel to get out of a stick wicket..
When the Ent D went after the borg, it was probably ( or should have) been evacuated of any civilians/families to a star base or another ship when it went into war.. ( should have happened at wolf 359 as well, Sisko's family at the battle was piss poor planning at the highest level)
So to me, they would have tried to keep the families safe in every possible way if possible, but there is always a danger of the ship being destroyed..
 
I always figured there were civilians at Wolf 359 because of one or more of the following:
a) There wasn't enough time/resource to evacuate non-essential personnel.
b) There wasn't enough time/resource for Saratoga specifically to do so (we don't see the complements of other ships).
c) TPTB figured that if Earth fell then it wouldn't really matter where civilians were.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top