Where did the show go wrong?
- Thread starter gakelly
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It's definitely overstated; it's just the easiest (i.e. most tangible) element that people can grasp onto re: VOY to complain about. If one looks at pure numbers she has far less screen time than Janeway and only slightly more than the EMH who, in turn, only has slightly more time than Paris.
Less screen time than Janeway and The Doctor?
Impossible!
Unless screentime in seasons 1-2 and 3 are counted and all those moments when the camera stayed on Seven some extra seconds in each and every scene are omitted.
The show sucked the first 3 seasons. They brought in a new character and decided to focus on her development to become more human like.
TOS did the same thing with Spock in many episodes
TNG did the same thing with Data in many episodes
She sort of filled the role that Tuvok was supposed to have filled on the show, but I guess he wasn't getting the job done in the eyes of the producers. Plus Trek seems to like to go on the gimmick of showing off the female form.
TOS had all the guest stars in scantily clad outfits. TNG had Troi. DS9 liked to show off Kira in a tank top and eventually Dax in towels, etc. And, although I only watched 1 episode of Enterprise, they went with the T'Pol or whatever her name was taking the shower in the pilot. It's almost like they decided that the show sucked so much they needed to do whatever they could to get guys to watch it.
TOS did the same thing with Spock in many episodes
TNG did the same thing with Data in many episodes
She sort of filled the role that Tuvok was supposed to have filled on the show, but I guess he wasn't getting the job done in the eyes of the producers. Plus Trek seems to like to go on the gimmick of showing off the female form.
TOS had all the guest stars in scantily clad outfits. TNG had Troi. DS9 liked to show off Kira in a tank top and eventually Dax in towels, etc. And, although I only watched 1 episode of Enterprise, they went with the T'Pol or whatever her name was taking the shower in the pilot. It's almost like they decided that the show sucked so much they needed to do whatever they could to get guys to watch it.
Not at all impossible, in fact it's objective reality: counting only seasons 4-7 Seven has 50% the line counts of Janeway. 50%. That's not debatable on an objective level if you run line counts, i.e. the numbers.
Seven has slightly more than the EMH, again only couting seasons 4-7. I did this 2 years ago and posted it 2-3 times in other threads, but perception often outweighs reality, as is evident in many other aspects of society (which, incidentally, is backed up by the fact that you misread what I actually posted regarding this very fact ).
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I have to disagree here.
The show didn't "suck" in seasons 1-3. It was an excellent show with great characters who all got their time in the spotlight. Most of the episodes were great too.
It did "suck" in season 4 when it became a show about one character with certain clothes and certain "attributes" which where showed in all possible angles.
OK, they did explore Spock's attempts to become more human and they did the same with Data. But it wasn't over-done in the same way they did with Seven.
"Tuvok didn't get the job done in the eyes of the producers". So that's the way they regarded one of the best characters in Star Trek and a great actor who played that character in an excellent way? If there were someone who "didn't get the job done", then it was those lousy sex-obsessed "producers". And yes, I do find Berman and Braga sex-obsessed.
Neither the women in miniskirts in TOS, Kira or Dax were as much sex-symbols than Seven. Troi came close but she never got that screen time or were allowed to shov the other characters in the background the same way it was done with Seven. As for T'Pol, she was just a bad copy of Seven, an attempt to do the trick one more time.
What the producers actually did in season 4 of Voyager was to tell the entire cast that "you are so lousy and this show is so lousy that we have to throw in a sex symbol to save it".
What they should have done after season 3 was to hire new producers and writers.
If anything "sucked" in Voyager, then it was the "writers" and "producers" who didn't have the skill to use the wonderful materiel they had in characters and cast members in the same way that the DS9 staff could but instead went for the "sex card" to attract viewers.
Yes, exactly my opinion too.
I get it. You are a hard core Voyager fan. And I am happy you enjoy the show, but many of the episodes were just so bland and full of the gimmick of disturbances of the space time continuum. I don't blame the actors. The Kazon are just terrible aliens enemies; how much space does that insignificant alien species control? I have decided to watch the series for a 2nd time and about half way through the 2nd season, there aren't any episodes that I really want to ever watch again. The closest would be the episodes Jetrel and Meld.
Tuvik and Resolutions were pretty good episodes. The show seemed to be turning a corner and then the writers go back to the Chakotay-Cesca baby storyline. Why did they return to the Kazon garbage? The good point about traveling through space, is the writers could have just made Voyager get through the Kazon controlled space. Might as well just cut the losses and move forward with better conceived aliens. Yet, the writers returned to the already failed story of the Kazon.
I'm not sure but I guess that this was a reply to my previous post so I take the liberty to reply to it.
I don't know if I can be classified as a "hard core Voyager fan" after my many critical remarks about seasons 4-7 and certain aspects of it. But I actually do like the first three seasons.
I remember beeing "hooked" on the show from the monent I watched "Caretaker". I took an immediately liking to all the main characters which is unusual for me, it has only happened with NCIS. I still like the characters even if I can see some weak spots here and there. I also loved the premise of the show with a ship with both Starfleet and Maquis crew lost on the other side of the galaxy.
As I see it, the problem wasn't the characters or the actors but the writers and producers who couldn't handle the materiel they had. Instead they wasted it.
As for the Kazon, I actually like them!
The Kazon polt was a good idea. It have happened many times in history that a people overthrow an opressor and then start to fight among themselves so the idea of rival Kazon sects was good. My objection to the Kazon scenario is the same as yours, how could such a split up group of sects control such a huge area?
What the writers should have done was to let Voyager stay a while at "The 37's planet" fighting the Kazon there and then while helping the people on the planet to create what could have become a New federation on the other side of the galaxy. Most of the Kazon episodes in season 2 could have taken place there and then and we would have had the non-kazon episodes at the second half of the season.
Otherwise I really enjoyed the Kazon episodes. Seska and Culluh are my favorite Star Trek villains together with Dukat and Winn, Henry Starling and Khan. And don't forget The Clown in "The Thaw"! Magnificent!
If you change from "control" to "threaten," the Kazon start to look more like the Mongols.
It is mostly the fact that from the moment where Voyager, thanks to the Doctor, got back in touch with Starfleet HQ, the concept/notion that Voyager and her crew were alone in middle of nowhere was definitively over. I was surprised and even disappointed, I must admit it, to see that with this new situation, the crew kept acting like if nothing has changed: what about the interactions between our senior officers and their friends & families based on Earth? What about Starfleet trying to retake - at distance - the control of the situation to the great displeasure of Janeway and giving orders about how to act as well in general business than with protocol (= how to treat the Maquis and the EMH) now that that the connection exists again.
The only time where we were reminded that Voyager wasn't alone anymore afterward, was when the Doctor wrote his holonovel and fought for his rights as author, with the intervention of a Judge from the Federation..
Yes, they definitely missed a few opportunities there.
I can't agree. Voyager had a ton of potential and some very likable characters, but it was never an excellent show. It consistently failed to exploit its unique premise and situation, all too often in favor of doing the kinds of shows that could have appeared on TNG. Bringing the Maquis aboard was pointless if they were immediately going to end up in uniform and -- with a rare few exceptions -- not behaving any differently from Starfleet officers. (Chakotay was especially ill-served here; turning from an angry battle commander into a virtual pacifist overnight. The longer the series ran, the harder it was to believe he'd ever been a rebel.) Putting them in the Delta Quadrant and isolating them from their homes and home society was pointless if they were always going to be a virtuous Starfleet ship and never be changed by their new situation -- see my earlier comments about "Alliances."
Well, yeah. But that was a problem from the very beginning. It didn't start in Season Four, or with Seven, or with Brannon Braga.
Absolutely!
^Braga did write the second (first regular) episode 
He wasn't running the show but he was a big influence on it from very early on.
And again, the writers and producers seemed to mostly be doing what the studio wanted, the studio wanted something pretty similar to just more TNG, not something that was too different.
He wasn't running the show but he was a big influence on it from very early on.
And again, the writers and producers seemed to mostly be doing what the studio wanted, the studio wanted something pretty similar to just more TNG, not something that was too different.
I don't see why they made such a cliché of Chakotay. Why does he keep reminding us that he's a native American? Like when he thought that Tuvok had made the bows and arrows specifically for him!! Why would anybody think that? I mean Saru, for example, speaks of his Kelpian nature once in a while but that's nothing compared to Chakotay! "Hey, my people do this!" "Hey, my people don't believe in this" etc... When he gives a house warming gift to Seven... it's a... "Dream Catcher" of course!!! Even though I am told these are only meant for children!!
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