Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?

[Lord Garth]

I see no evidence of a Utopia in either TOS or Discovery. The only time "Utopia" is actually presented is in TNG. DS9 focused on trying to pick it apart while ENT tries to support it by planting the seeds for what the Federation would eventually become. VOY has no opinion on the subject... and Discovery has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

I'd love to see examples of DSC backing up TNG's "Utopia" instead of TOS's "Flawed but better than we are today." I'd also love to see counter-examples of DSC trying to pick apart TNG's Utopia. DSC isn't touching the TNG interpretation one way or the other.

Yes, DSC imported Section 31 from DS9, but S31 existing doesn't mean the facade of the Federation in DSC is Utopian any more for than the CIA existing in the United States makes its facade Utopian. Section 31 is a concept that could've existed independent of TNG/DS9. It's even used in Star Trek Into Darkness. And I wouldn't call that movie TNG Trek, or something that was trying to deconstruct TNG Trek, either.

Leland telling Pike, "I do what I do so you can do what you do" doesn't sound the same as saying "Humanity is evolved and the Federation is above all this," nor is it "We do what we do so the rest of the Federation can stay pristine." Cornwell tells Pike that the reason he wasn't in the Klingon War was so that if the Federation fell, the best of Starfleet would still survive. The Best. So Pike is not a typical example of Starfleet or the Federation in DSC.

 

[fireproof78]

Pretending they are the good guys is. The truth is - such people will always exist, but usually create WAY more harm than they ever do good. They are a menace, that need to be stopped. Not "heroes" to be cheered for.

Giving them their own show does not make them heroes or good guys. I do not see them as anything of the sort, nor do I think they are being presented as "heroes" or "good guys" and I do not cheer them on.

Yes, DSC imported Section 31 from DS9, but S31 existing doesn't mean the facade of the Federation in DSC is Utopian any more for than the CIA existing in the United States makes its facade Utopian. Section 31 is a concept that could've existed independent of TNG/DS9. It's even used in Star Trek Into Darkness. And I wouldn't call that movie TNG Trek, or something that was trying to deconstruct TNG Trek, either.

And many authors tried to work it in. I completely agree and I'm tired of the mere existence of S31 somehow being indicative of the Federation being less perfect.

 

[Jadeb]

Cornwell tells Pike that the reason he wasn't in the Klingon War was so that if the Federation fell, the best of Starfleet would still survive. The Best. So Pike is not a typical example of Starfleet or the Federation in DSC.

That was so goofy and fannish that I could hardly believe it was in an actual episode.

 

[Noname Given]

And, oh yes, complaints that the show was too "politically correct."

And lest we all forget, JMS claim that DS9 was a ripoff of Babylon 5 because it was on a space station...(but he would nbe nice and not sue ).

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

VOY has no opinion on the subject... and Discovery has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

I'd love to see examples of DSC backing up TNG's "Utopia" instead of TOS's "Flawed but better than we are today." I'd also love to see counter-examples of DSC trying to pick apart TNG's Utopia. DSC isn't touching the TNG interpretation one way or the other.

Yes, DSC imported Section 31 from DS9, but S31 existing doesn't mean the facade of the Federation in DSC is Utopian any more for than the CIA existing in the United States makes its facade Utopian. Section 31 is a concept that could've existed independent of TNG/DS9. It's even used in Star Trek Into Darkness. And I wouldn't call that movie TNG Trek, or something that was trying to deconstruct TNG Trek, either.

Leland telling Pike, "I do what I do so you can do what you do" doesn't sound the same as saying "Humanity is evolved and the Federation is above all this," nor is it "We do what we do so the rest of the Federation can stay pristine." Cornwell tells Pike that the reason he wasn't in the Klingon War was so that if the Federation fell, the best of Starfleet would still survive. The Best. So Pike is not a typical example of Starfleet or the Federation in DSC.

In VOY, I would say that Janeway has a very utopian view of Federation values, whether or not she actually felt it was a utopia in practice. Either way, we have a concept built into us that says "And they lived happily ever after. The end." It's an oversimplified view that doesn't allow for the kinds of rollercoasters that occur in real life, whether in relationships or among entire civilizations. It's nice to think someone hit a switch on human nature, war and peace, and suddenly they all lived happily ever after, but I would prefer a Trek that pushes ideals while also dealing with the rollercoasters of life on the micro and macro scale. Sometimes there's light, sometimes there's darkness.

 

[Lord Garth]

That was so goofy and fannish that I could hardly believe it was in an actual episode.

Ironically, I think it was only put in there to appease fans who wanted an explanation for why Pike, and by extension Spock, weren't in The War. Kind of like "We'll never have the holoprojectors again!" and "I propose that we not discuss Discovery or the Spore Drive under the penalty of Treason." Paraphrasing because I don't remember Spock's exact line.

I didn't like the pandering either. But my main point that Pike is supposed to represent The Best in Starfleet still stands. He does seem better than the typical Captain. Someone could argue it's revisionism after the fact, but how much? Kirk told Spock he was named the best First Officer in the Fleet in "Amok Time" and said that was an enormous asset to him.

On a meta level, the guy who originally played Pike also played Jesus, so Pike better be among The Best.

 

[Mudd]

That was so goofy and fannish that I could hardly believe it was in an actual episode.

The writers having the characters occasionally posture like that is a kind of fan service.

 

[seigezunt]

"Bring back original Trek writers!"

"But not that guy!"

 

[valkyrie013]

Well Utopia for me is a kind of "Way" I guess... In Trek, Earth is a Utopia because you don't have disease, famine, hunger, etc, basic post scarcity economy, You can be born, and generally do what you feel like doing without the fear of going hungry or no roof. An Ideal.
Now you can still have bad things happen in a utopia, like Alien A come along and try to bomb it, etc. But in general, people are happy because alot of the worry that affects people now, are gone.
I'm sure there's still crime, murder, theft etc, nothings perfect..
the show is just more optomistic than most of scifi, saying we will get through this rough patch and go out into the universe in peace, not war.

 

[The Wormhole]

On a meta level, the guy who originally played Pike also played Jesus, so Pike better be among The Best.

I always liked what Stewie said on Family Guy about Jeffrey Hunter. "Apparently he was good enough to die for our sins, but couldn't seduce green skinned alien women."

 

[Greg Cox]

I always liked what Stewie said on Family Guy about Jeffrey Hunter. "Apparently he was good enough to die for our sins, but couldn't seduce green skinned alien women."

Despite Vina's best efforts.

 

[Lord Garth]

Despite Vina's best efforts.

It's the Sunday School upbringing.

 

[fireproof78]

I always liked what Stewie said on Family Guy about Jeffrey Hunter. "Apparently he was good enough to die for our sins, but couldn't seduce green skinned alien women."

We all have our gifts.

 

[Tiphanie]

I‘d love a Pike Show but I think S31 will also be awesome.
But Mount killed it with portraying Pike this season in my opinion! I just loved him.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I'd like to have a Pike show and a S31 show. It's not like one will prevent the other from happening, that's a terrible argument.

 

[fireproof78]

I'd like to have a Pike show and a S31 show. It's not like one will prevent the other from happening, that's a terrible argument.

Would love to have both. More Star Trek the better, in my opinion.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I'd like to have a Pike show and a S31 show. It's not like one will prevent the other from happening, that's a terrible argument.

Some Trekkies are like Sith, they deal in absolutes.

 

[BillJ]

Giving Georgiou her own show as a Federation operative would be like giving one to Gul Dukat. A character who admittedly killed millions of Bajorans.

Once you've done that, you pretty much lost any kind of moral high ground.

 

[Lord Garth]

Giving Georgiou her own show as a Federation operative would be like giving one to Gul Dukat. A character who admittedly killed millions of Bajorans.

Once you've done that, you pretty much lost any kind of moral high ground.

I think something's being forgotten here. The Klingon Empire in the Mirror Universe probably wanted to destroy the Terran Empire the same way the Klingon Empire in the Prime/Disco Universe wanted to destroy the Federation.

Georgiou was fighting an enemy that was already fighting her. The Klingons weren't poor, defenseless sheep. If they were, I'd agree with your point. They weren't. Burnham asked Georgiou how the Klingons were defeated in the Mirror Universe and she gave an answer. The Klingons wouldn't stop. They'd keep coming forever.

The Bajorans never attacked the Cardassians. The Bajorans never wanted to destroy the Cardassians. The Bajorans were innocents. The Klingons weren't.

 

[BillJ]

Georgiou was fighting any enemy that was already fighting her. The Klingons weren't poor, defenseless sheep. If they were, I'd agree with your point. They weren't.

Which was why she obliterated a rebel camp from orbit? Why she executed her inner circle to keep them from learning about the Multi-verse? Why she helped Captain Killy commit genocide against the Talosians? Those were just things that we know of...

She is every bit the monster Gul Dukat was.