News Discovery is officially 5th most-watched Netflix show in the UK

[Alan Roi]

CBS considers the Star Trek brand reliable. Currently, DIS is the standard-bearer. They're not going to axe their flagship show. But the fact that they're retooling it again also implies the actual numbers - whatever they may be - where below expectations. Which can also be the result of unrealistic expectations *cough Beyond *cough

But in general, every show where people have to tell everyone how it's the biggest, most watched Nr. 1 show, and have to rely on really obscure and indirect sources for that claim - simply isn't. Doesn't mean it's not successfull mind you.

*yawn* They're retooling it in the same way that Shore Leave was a retooling of Star Trek after Balance of terror. Is it going to be 'retooled again' when season 4 is a different story too (you know, like The Galileo Seven was after Shore leave)? But I'm sure that after 7 seasons there will be people saying it fell below the expectations of CBS *somehow*.

 

[BillJ]

*yawn* They're retooling it in the same way that Shore Leave was a retooling of Balance of terror.

Has Star Trek ever done this kind of mass retooling mid-series? Beyond bringing in Worf (DS9) and Seven of Nine (VOY), I can't think of a time a Trek series went through this kind of shift in setting.

 

[Alan Roi]

Has Star Trek ever done this kind of mass retooling mid-series? Beyond bringing in Worf (DS9) and Seven of Nine (VOY), I can't think of a time a Trek series went through this kind of shift in setting.

Every time the time traveled there was a shift in setting. When DS9 characters went through the wormhole, there was a shift in setting. Discovery is made up of 10-11 hour episodes, not 45 minute episodes. So yeah, seasons of Star Trek used to go through the same kind of repeated "retooling" when location and tone was different from the previous or subsequent story that still featured the same core cast and the same ship.

 

[Rahul]

No, what DIS did is pretty much unique, not just in terms of Star Trek, but genre fiction in general. Other shows have shifted to similar or even more degrees - compare GoT season 8 to season 2, or nuBSG season 4 to season 1 - but that was usually a slower process, step-by-step, instead of a massive reset and overhaul at once.

 

[BillJ]

Every time the time traveled there was a shift in setting. When DS9 characters went through the wormhole, there was a shift in setting. Discovery is made up of 10-11 hour episodes, not 45 minute episodes. So yeah, seasons of Star Trek used to go through the same kind of repeated "retooling" when location and tone was different from the previous or subsequent story that still featured the same core cast and the same ship.

I don't think you know what "retooling" means. To be honest.

 

[Alan Roi]

No, what DIS did is pretty much unique, not just in terms of Star Trek, but genre fiction in general. Other shows have shifted to similar or even more degrees - compare GoT season 8 to season 2, or nuBSG season 4 to season 1 - but that was usually a slower process, step-by-step, instead of a massive reset and overhaul at once.

Sure. Instead of the series being one giant story, Discovery is a Star Trek series where the episodes are 11 hours long instead of 45 minutes. Not sure why this is a concept that is in anyway difficult to grasp.

 

[Rahul]

Sure. Instead of the series being one giant story, Discovery is a Star Trek series where the episodes are 11 hours long instead of 45 minutes. Not sure why this is a concept that is in anyway difficult to grasp.

Usually, when one Trek episode/story/arc ends, the main ship/station/characters are still largely in the same universe, setting and time as they were before, even if there had been otherwise massive changes to the status quo.

 

[BillJ]

If a sitcom is set in New York, and the characters visit LA for an episode or two, that isn't a retooling. A retooling would be moving the setting to LA, introducing of some new characters and landscapes, with new relationships.

 

[Alan Roi]

Usually, when one Trek episode/story/arc ends, the main ship/station/characters are still largely in the same universe, setting and time as they were before, even if there had been otherwise massive changes to the status quo.

I do agree that Discovery's 'status quo' isn't as static and unchanging as other Trek series.

 

[Alan Roi]

If a sitcom is set in New York, and the characters visit LA for an episode or two, that isn't a retooling. A retooling would be moving the setting to LA, introducing of some new characters and landscapes, with new relationships.

But if your episodes are 11 hours long instead of 45 minutes, then a story set in a different locale is just a story set in a different locale. I'll agree this is different from previous Trek series, but really, the only major difference is in story length so far.

 

[BillJ]

But if your episodes are 11 hours long instead of 45 minutes, then a story set in a different locale is just a story set in a different locale.

Discovery's home setting is the 23rd century, everything about it ties it to that setting. It doesn't matter if the story is an hour or eleven, they are moving the show (presumably permanently) away from its home setting and the things that tie the characters to that setting.

It makes it a pretty big retooling. That doesn't make it good or bad, just what it is.

 

[Alan Roi]

Discovery's home setting is the 23rd century, everything about it ties it to that setting. It doesn't matter if the story is an hour or eleven, they are moving the show (presumably permanently) away from its home setting and the things that tie the characters to that setting.

It makes it a pretty big retooling. That doesn't make it good or bad, just what it is.

That's what it is to you. I don't view this a retooling anymore than i would any Star Trek episode that puts the crew/ship in a different setting. Their original setting is still there and could be returned to as early as story #4.

 

[Rahul]

Also the whole "classify everything and never, ever be allowed to talk about any of the characters or events that happened anywhere or anytime outside of this series"-bit. That was IMO the bigger offender between the two.

 

[Alan Roi]

CBS considers the Star Trek brand reliable. Currently, DIS is the standard-bearer. They're not going to axe their flagship show. But the fact that they're retooling it again also implies the actual numbers - whatever they may be - where below expectations. Which can also be the result of unrealistic expectations *cough Beyond *cough

But in general, every show where people have to tell everyone how it's the biggest, most watched Nr. 1 show, and have to rely on really obscure and indirect sources for that claim - simply isn't. Doesn't mean it's not successfull mind you.

The Streaming TV world is different from the Neilson Family world, clearly. But we already know that.

 

[Alan Roi]

Also the whole "classify everything and never, ever be allowed to talk about any of the characters or events that happened anywhere or anytime outside of this series"-bit. That was IMO the bigger offender between the two.

I'll agree there. Usually with Star Trek series the 'never talk about anything in this episode ever again' is accomplished by rolling the end credits of any given episode.

 

[Rahul]

I'll agree there. Usually with Star Trek series the 'never talk about anything in this episode ever again' is accomplished by rolling the end credits of any given episode.

Which would have been entirely sufficient in the case of DIS as well, IMO.

The entirety of stuff like "canon" or "continuity" is in my opinion nothing more than "we liked that element back then, let's revisit it and see what it's up to now". That's really all there is. But I don't like being told "that one can be dropped, we're not going to revisit that", weather that comes in the form of a sloppy reboot, or a weird "fix".

 

[Alan Roi]

Which would have been entirely sufficient in the case of DIS as well, IMO.

The entirety of stuff like "canon" or "continuity" is in my opinion nothing more than "we liked that element back then, let's revisit it and see what it's up to now". That's really all there is. But I don't like being told "that one can be dropped, we're not going to revisit that", weather that comes in the form of a reboot, or a weird "fix".

Well, that's what happens, IMO, when a small vocal group screams 'canon violation loud enough and for long enough. The people running things make things worse, "for the fans",

On the other hand, the whole 'classified' thing appeared to be primarily a recommendation that came from Spock, and those often get ignored for the most part if franchise canon is any indication.

 

[Rahul]

Well, that's what happens, IMO, when a small vocal group screams 'canon violation loud enough and for long enough. The people running things make things worse, "for the fans",

I'm not going to blame fans for wrong decisions by the creators. Fans will always give feedback, and sadly some will always be too harsh and personal. But I will not blame "the fans" for stupid decisions on the work. That's just feedback. Whatever people do with that, rests squarely on the shoulders of the ones actually doing it.

I thought how season 2 addressed the feedback regarding hairless Klingons, D7s, colored uniforms and all that was beautiful. Frankly, if season 3 or 4 would be set in that established universe, I'd have no problems at all calling it "the 23rd century".

And there will always be "early installment weirdness". TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, DIS all did lots and lots of things wrong in their first two seasons. And fans were unreasonably harsh. But most of these stuck to their original premise, and incorporated that feedback step by step. As DIS did up until that final five minutes.

 

[Alan Roi]

I'm not going to blame fans for wrong decisions by the creators. Fans will always give feedback, and sadly some will always be too harsh and personal. But I will not blame "the fans" for stupid decisions on the work. That's just feedback. Whatever people do with that, rests squarely on the shoulders of the ones actually doing it.

I thought how season 2 addressed the feedback regarding hairless Klingons, D7s, colored uniforms and all that was beautiful. Frankly, if season 3 or 4 would be set in that established universe, I'd have no problems at all calling it "the 23rd century".

And there will always be "early installment weirdness". TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, DIS all did lots and lots of things wrong in their first two seasons. And fans were unreasonably harsh. But most of these stuck to their original premise, and incorporated that feedback step by step. As DIS did up until that final five minutes.

AFIAC, they haven't changed the show's premise at all. They are just taking the ship, and the characters on it to a new place to tell the next story. I'm not bothered it isn't as hidebound as previous series have made a point in being, something which, IMO, drove past Treks into the ground in their lack of inherent flexibility. I see this as more drawing inspiration from what Trek writers were allowed to do in the novels I've read.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The change in Disco is akin to Fringe's last season. Same characters, new future setting with an entirely new dynamic.