The moment it became a shared understanding in the writers room that the show would be “More of what TNG did”.
Where did the show go wrong?
- Thread starter gakelly
- Start date
Well to be fair the first episodes of TNG and DSN after the pilot were hardly stellar as well.
It's only going to get worse until season three.
For what it's worth, here are the episodes from the first two seasons I remember being decent-to-good:
Eye of the Needle
Cathexis (this is really run of the mill but I like the concept)
Projections
Persistence of Vision
Cold Fire (i like Kes)
Meld
Dreadnought
The Thaw (i have a feeling most people don't like this, but it has the same compelling weird quality as early TNG to me)
Tuvix (mainly for the surprisingly brutal ending)
Other than that, not much good in the first two seasons.
It's interesting to read these criticisms of the Maquis plot in this thread - to be honest, I frequently forget that the Maquis were ever a thing in the show. They were such a non-entity to me. Which I'm actually glad for, because I was kind of annoyed that they were there in the first place. It felt like an excuse for manufactured conflict, and the same conflict over and over each week until some life-threatening event happens to bring them all together. I'm glad that they dispensed with that early, and it didn't really come to pass in that way.
Wow! I couldn't disagree more. Janeway is my favorite captain. I don't think she was smug at all, in fact I appreciate that she could be really vulnerable at times. I liked that she was basically a mix of Picard and Kirk - wanting to "do the right thing" but more adventurous and willing to take risks than Picard.
As an aside, Wesley and Guinan are also two of my favorite Trek characters, so I wouldn't consider it so bad if Janeway was like them. But, I don't feel that she was.
I think this is exactly right. I didn't see Voyager when it first aired. I watched the entire series much later, sometime around 2013. And I feel like this was perfect timing - I really appreciated the lighter, more whimsical feel of the show as compared to the dark, gritty stuff that had been on TV for the past decade. It was like a breath of fresh air. But thinking back to the sort of things I was watching in the 90s, Voyager probably would have felt like more of the same, or even outdated.
Having the Maquis on Voyager created an expectation that things would be different. Nobody made TPTB put Maquis on the crew; hell, the Maquis were created so that some of their number could be on the ship. Why do that if it's not going to make any difference? You're right -- the way things played out, it would have been better to make the crew all-Starfleet from the beginning. At least that way the audience would have had a better idea of what they would actually get.
And yet, properly used, the Maquis could have played an important role in Voyager's adaptation to the Delta Quadrant. If nothing else, the Maquis were used to scavenging, adapting, making do -- we saw some of that with Torres's ability to keep the ship flying without regular spacedock visits or reliable sources of replacement parts, though it was rarely referenced as a Maquis-type skill. Starfleet members are trained in survival techniques, but Maquis have spent much more time actually using them to stay alive. I, for one, was hoping to see it presented that both sides had something to offer: Starfleet their knowledge and discipline, the Maquis their own knowledge and their skill at improvisation. A give-and-take.
And I realized once-and-for-all, with season two's "Alliances," that that was out of the picture. After making what only the blindly charitable could call a good-faith effort to form alliances within the quadrant (I'm sorry, but when you're looking for allies and you tender a serious offer to the same woman who's already betrayed you and used her insider's knowledge to attack and rob you, you're either an idiot or you don't really want your efforts to succeed), Janeway firmly, uncompromisingly, and well-nigh insufferably proclaimed her intent to play by the book. The Starfleet book. Nothing to learn, no need to change.
I was depressed.
It was a complete waste. Much later, Voyager also absorbed some crewmembers from the Equinox, but of course we never hear about them again. Even though they'd almost destroyed Voyager, they seamlessly blended in with the crew with no hiccups to ever make them worth mentioning again.
Again, Lisa Klink: the writers felt they could safely ignore any deep, ongoing material needs, thanks to replicators.
So, the least interesting solution, the one that offered the fewest (pretty close to zero, IIRC, the only exception being "Year of Hell") dramatic possibilities, and the one that changed Voyager's situation least when compared to any other Star Trek ship. I wish I knew why that seemed like a good idea.
I have not watched VOY since the original run. I tried recently to start a rewatch, but it was too painful.
If I had to make a wild guess, I'd have to say that Voyager's problem was not having TNG's best writers (who were busy on DS9), and the mandate from UPN to flagship the new network. Better shows have fallen under less pressure.
If I had to make a wild guess, I'd have to say that Voyager's problem was not having TNG's best writers (who were busy on DS9), and the mandate from UPN to flagship the new network. Better shows have fallen under less pressure.
Replicator's aren't magic tech they have limitations. As we are basically told they are incapable of replicating some of the parts needed to make a photon torpedo. Now you can say that they should never have put that line in regarding having no way to replace them, but they did. So the writers had a self imposed limitation, is it wrong for me as a viewer to hold them to it?
Sure you can say they fixed the issue of screen but that's still poor writing, isn't there a saying when it comes to writing "show don't tell?" They neither showed or told the audience so it comes across as "viewers are idiots, they won't remember something we did in an episode last year"
Just to be clear, I'm only reporting the writer's opinion--an opinion I do not share.
Let's start with the positive things here!
You have actually mentioned some of my favorite episodes here. The masterpiece "Cold Fire" and the second masterpiece "Persistence Of Vision" who are my favorite Voyager episodes with "Caretaker" at third place.
"Projections" is one of my top 10 episodes and I laso like "Meld", "The Thaw" and "Tuvix".
And you seem to like my favorite character as well!
But I disagree with your statement about seasons 1-3.
As I see it, season 2 was outstanding. Most of the episodes deserves best possible points, especially those mentioned in this thread, although I consider "Projections" as a season 1 episode due to ther stardate. Therte was only one bad episode, "Threshold" and that episode is actually funny if you watch it as some nightmare Janeway had after eating too much of Neelix's food before going to bed. Some really amusing scenes here.
Season 1 is also very good. Two really weak episodes ("Emanations" and "Elogium") but otherwise great episodes.
Season 3 is also good but there are more bum episodes here than in seasons 1 and 2 and I get the impression that the writers started to lose interest and inspiration after Voyager left Kazon space. They didn't know what to do with the series which is surprising considering how many posiblikities there were to come up with great stories about a ship in uncharted area with lot of new interesting species and situations.
Then they dumped kes for no reasons at all and came up with a sex symbol instead and from there it was all about showing up Seven from all possible angles. Everything was about Seven, Janeway and The Doctor while the other great characters were shoved in the background.
The only episodes I enjoy watching again from season 4-6 (I've only watched "Endgame" in season 7 and don't want to watch that lousy episode again) are "Nemesis", "Equinox" and "Blink Of An Eye".
In fact, I actually bought season 4 on DVD this year in order to watch it again, I haven't watched it since 2001 but I've only came halfway before starting a DS9 relaunch instead.
I actually think that putting the Maquis on the ship was a good idea.
I agree with the writers idea of making Starfleet and Maquis crews cooperate at an early state. It was the only logical thing to do since even the most devoted Maquis must have realized that the only possible way to get home was on Janeway's ship and that it was necessary to adapt to that. I don't think that the show would have benefitted from a lot of bickering and arguing betweeen Starfleet and Maquis people. I still remember the horrible Stargate Universe where the first season was a constant bickering, arguing and whining between the "military faction" and the "civilian faction" on that "Voyage Of The Damned".
However, there could at least have been a little more tension in season 1. For example, B'Elanna Torres became domesticated tooearly considering her attitude in "caretaker", they could at least have given her 3-4 epiosodes of rage and dissatisfaction before turning her into a perfect Starfleet character.
As for your comment about "Alliances", an episode I really like, I have to give you some points. I think that Chakotay was right when he suggetsted Maquis tactics and that Voyager should use temporary alliances to help them through hostile space.
It was downright stupid to even consider an alliance with the Kazon-Nistrim due to the fact that Seska was there and that they had had a confrontation with Culluh and the Nistrim before. Maybe they should have tried with the Kazon-Ogla or Kazon-Oglamar instead.
However, the most logical choice for an alliance were actually.............OK, here it comes: The Trabe!
I know that some of you would disagree here because of how the Trabe acted, a former oprressor who used Janeway's longing for peace to eliminate the Kazon leaders. The Trabe were not particularily nice actually, they were as bad as the Kazon.
But look at it this way instead. The Trabe had a big fleet which could have escorted Voyager out of Kazon space. All the Kazon sects saw Voyager as an enemy, an intruder into their territory and no one had the slightest interest in having any sort of peaceful relation with Voyager. Later episodes in season 2 showed that. With the help of the Trabe, Voyager would have avoided later conflicts with the Kazon-Nistrim, such as Jonas's treason and being stranded on Hanon IV when the Nistrim took over the ship. On the other hand, we wouldn't have had the opportunity to watch some great episodes like "Investigations" and "Basics" if that had happened.
I do like "Alliances" which is a great episode due to the whole plot about seeking alliances among some of the species in the quadrant. However, the only thng that I still find somewhat annoying is Janeway's speech at the end. A bit over the top as I see it.
I find the Kazon to be the most ill conceived aliens in trek. They just aren't very interesting.
I finished season 1 and can say it is rather bland...some episodes are just unmemorable. They aren't thought provoking, super interesting or anything, but they are just what they are...kind of just disposable.
Eye of the Needle
Ex Post Facto
Jetrel
These were the 3 episodes that I would consider high quality of season 1.
I finished season 1 and can say it is rather bland...some episodes are just unmemorable. They aren't thought provoking, super interesting or anything, but they are just what they are...kind of just disposable.
Eye of the Needle
Ex Post Facto
Jetrel
These were the 3 episodes that I would consider high quality of season 1.
I truly think they went wrong at the casting stage. Beltran, Wang, McNeil, that's too many weak-links. Russ is a good actor, but miscast, Tuvok does not play to his strengths. Lien and Phillips I both liked as performers, but their energies were oddly placed -- this was also a mistake of casting, Kes/Neelix would probably have worked better if they had Phillips opposite a different Kes, or Lien opposite a different Neelix. (And of course there was also the Genevieve Bujold misstep, but at least they managed to fix that). And I recognize this is a minority opinion, but I always thought Picardo was hammy and forced.
Of course, there were many other problems, but a strong cast can be one of the lights showing you the way out of it. TNG and DS9 got their casts right, and that's a crucial reason both shows were able to evolve beyond and correct for their early mistakes, the strong casts gave the shows strong bones to build upon.
I have often wondered whose (latent?) racism in the casting process was responsible for Beltran, Wang, and Montgomery over on Enterprise. The three worst actors in the franchise are three of the notable ethnic minority slots. That's not a coincidence, that is someone's (probably unconscious) racial blind-spots deforming the decision-making process when those roles were being cast.
Of course, there were many other problems, but a strong cast can be one of the lights showing you the way out of it. TNG and DS9 got their casts right, and that's a crucial reason both shows were able to evolve beyond and correct for their early mistakes, the strong casts gave the shows strong bones to build upon.
I have often wondered whose (latent?) racism in the casting process was responsible for Beltran, Wang, and Montgomery over on Enterprise. The three worst actors in the franchise are three of the notable ethnic minority slots. That's not a coincidence, that is someone's (probably unconscious) racial blind-spots deforming the decision-making process when those roles were being cast.
It is no coincidence ... until you add Terry Farrell back into that list, who admits herself her acting skills were insufficient when she was hired.
And that Scott Bakula, who's actually a pretty good actor, was hopelessly miscast as a starship captain.
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