Spoilers Game of Thrones: The Final Season

[Paul Weaver]

or joins the Night's Watch.

Problem solved. He abdicated back in season 1 when he took the black.

Of course being rightful heir is nothing to do with the law, otherwise Baratheon wouldn't have become king (or if he did, Gendry wouldn't be bought off with a castle). It's to do with who the lords want as king. Birthright and bloodlines are all irrelevant.

 

[eschaton]

Dany is Game of Thrones' most popular character.

Could you tell me where to find statistics on that?

A brief glance online found a 2017 Rotten Tomatoes survey, which found Tyrion edged out Dany as the most popular character (and it wasn't a wide margin, 28% to 19%)

This 2018 survey found Dany ranking number 7. Admittedly, she was number one the previous year. That year, The Hound, Davos, Arya, Tyrion, Jamie, and Jon beat her out.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Of course being rightful heir is nothing to do with the law, otherwise Baratheon wouldn't have become king (or if he did, Gendry wouldn't be bought off with a castle). It's to do with who the lords want as king. Birthright and bloodlines are all irrelevant.

Baratheon won a power struggle and usurped the Targaryens. Many called him the Usurper.

Gendry is a bastard, and Robert had no rightful heir, which is why Stannis had the strongest claim to the crown. Within the Targaryen family though, Jon has the strongest claim so if the Targaryens take over, Jon is the rightful Targaryen.

I would argue that his taking the Black was not an abdication as he did not know who he was at the time.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Could you tell me where to find statistics on that?

A brief glance online found a 2017 Rotten Tomatoes survey, which found Tyrion edged out Dany as the most popular character (and it wasn't a wide margin, 28% to 19%)

This 2018 survey found Dany ranking number 7. Admittedly, she was number one the previous year. That year, The Hound, Davos, Arya, Tyrion, Jamie, and Jon beat her out.

Another good meaningless metric that people love to follow is the Emmys. Dinklage has won three Emmys out of seven (i.e. nominated every season) whereas Clarke has been nominated only three times and never won.

The point is there's no way of telling who is the most popular character of a decade-long series with a large cast and massive fanbase. Simply declaring one to support one's argument is...folly.

 

[Jax]

Tyrion for probably the first 4 seasons then Jon for the next 2 and now Ayra for me. Dany has never come close to being my favourite character.

 

[eschaton]

That didn't happen because people were "not seeing her dark side"; it happened because of the writing and Emelia Clarke's acting, and now that David and Dan are suddenly trying to paint her as the villain, people are angry because it feels like a betrayal of the support they have given the character and the show.

I'm sorry, but I find this whole "identifying with and rooting for a character" thing so fundamentally strange.

I enjoy a good character arc. And when it's botched, I will say so (for example, Littlefinger's arc in the show was awful). But I don't feel like or dislike for any of them, don't personally identify with any of them, and don't feel that any of these imaginary people are entitled to a happy ending.

Sometimes, being upset with the endpoint for relatable characters is the entire point. How many happy endings are there in Shakespeare's great plays?

 

[eschaton]

Problem solved. He abdicated back in season 1 when he took the black.

Technically the vows for the Night's Watch are "as long as I live" meaning Jon was relieved in death and rebirth. He'd need to take the black a second time.

I wonder if he's functionally ageless now that he's been resurrected?

 

[Xerxes82]

I would argue that his taking the Black was not an abdication as he did not know who he was at the time.

In theory, it explicitly WAS an abdication. The vows of the Watch aren't exactly subtle on the point. "I will hold no titles, own no lands and father no children," as I recall. From this day until the end of their days.

Of course, in the most technical sense Jon fulfilled his vow, dying in the line of duty. His resurrection is an odd loophole that has opened up a whole new can of worms. But yes, in terms of any legalities, Jon should be ok to be Lord of Winterfell, King on the Iron Throne, or Mr. Danearys Targaryen if he wants.

 

[FreezeC77]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.

Jon died.

 

[Starkers]

I never really got the love for Dany that many have. She's an interesting character, but not one I'd want to be "friends" with. Talk about a one-way street.

While I agree, and while I think she's had the potential to be a tyrant for years, it's worth considering that she's as much a product of her experiences as Sansa. Both were sold into marriages, both were, effectively, raped on their wedding night. That Dany came to love her husband possibly just makes her assault all the creepier. (I'm trying to remember but wasn't their wedding night in front of all the Dothraki as well!) She then lost not only her husband but her unborn child.

I think it's highly likely she'll go off the rails now. Look what she's been hit with in close succession. She's lost Jorah, Missandei, two of her three dragons (who lest we forget she considers her children) discovered her lover is actually her nephew and has a better claim to the throne than her, plus far from being welcomed with open arms the people of Westeros seem quite luke warm when it comes to her. In many ways all she has left is the throne. It's become an obsession, no scratch that, more of an obsession.

Say what you like but protagonist or antagonist she's a fully three dimensional character and however her story goes it'll make sense from a certain point of view.

 

[DigificWriter]

Could you tell me where to find statistics on that?

A brief glance online found a 2017 Rotten Tomatoes survey, which found Tyrion edged out Dany as the most popular character (and it wasn't a wide margin, 28% to 19%)

This 2018 survey found Dany ranking number 7. Admittedly, she was number one the previous year. That year, The Hound, Davos, Arya, Tyrion, Jamie, and Jon beat her out.

I was basing my statement on things like merchandise, cosplay, people naming their children after her or one of her titles, and political figures pointing towards her as an example moreso than on hard statistics.

Even if she's not statistically GoT's most popular character, she's become an "icon" for a lot of people who are now angry that David and Dan are trying to paint her as a villain because it doesn't feel "earned" based on previous seasons.

 

[eschaton]

So, my new hypothesis for how the book arc is supposed to go is this:

• Cersei goes down to someone else (maybe f(Aegon) maybe Euron)
• Dany and the resurrected Jon work together to secure the Iron Throne for her
• Dany and Jon's forces work together to defeat the Others
• Jon discovers his true parentage, and it becomes increasingly clear Dany is becoming an unstable tyrant, meaning he ultimately must remove her from power after she's already been on the throne for some time

It hits basically the same points the show is hitting. However, it's stretched out over a longer period of time, which gives the reader and the characters time to lose faith in the ability of Dany to rule once she's actually on the Iron Throne.

 

[Mr Awe]

While I agree, and while I think she's had the potential to be a tyrant for years, it's worth considering that she's as much a product of her experiences as Sansa. Both were sold into marriages, both were, effectively, raped on their wedding night. That Dany came to love her husband possibly just makes her assault all the creepier. (I'm trying to remember but wasn't their wedding night in front of all the Dothraki as well!) She then lost not only her husband but her unborn child.

I think it's highly likely she'll go off the rails now. Look what she's been hit with in close succession. She's lost Jorah, Missandei, two of her three dragons (who lest we forget she considers her children) discovered her lover is actually her nephew and has a better claim to the throne than her, plus far from being welcomed with open arms the people of Westeros seem quite luke warm when it comes to her. In many ways all she has left is the throne. It's become an obsession, no scratch that, more of an obsession.

Say what you like but protagonist or antagonist she's a fully three dimensional character and however her story goes it'll make sense from a certain point of view.

Oh, I agree completely. She's a three-dimensional character and I think they've done a great job building her up over the series. I just think she'd be a dangerous, unstable "friend" to have. Needy and self-entitled. It's her way or the highway. But, yes, they've shown how she became that person.

I also agree that they've taken away any restraints she's had in the past. Jorah is dead. She no longer trusts Tyriol. The situation with Missendei has only antagonized her, and now Grey Worm has no reason for restraint. And, Jon was her rock, but has now become a threat. Yeah, she'll go more off the rails!

I'm puzzled by those who don't think this has been thoroughly set up over the course of the series. And, recent events are only going to make it worse!

 

[Forbin]

Well, Dani IS the only character I've found a (unlicensed) nude model kit of.

 

[FreezeC77]

Well, Dani IS the only character I've found a (unlicensed) nude model kit of.

So did you find licensed nude models for the other characters?

 

[DigificWriter]

It's been mentioned a few times how the way David and Dan are choosing to end the series seems to be 'consistent with what they were told by GRRM', but that's the problem: they haven't been told anything by GRRM as per their own admission (https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/...owrunners-unaware-george-rr-martin-books-end/). He (GRRM) has said that the ending of the TV show will bear some general similarities to how he's planning on ending the novels, but that's not because David and Dan know anything about said ending.

 

[Forbin]

So did you find licensed nude models for the other characters?

There are rumors of a Tormund kit, but I haven't really looked for it.

 

[Forbin]

It's been mentioned a few times how the way David and Dan are choosing to end the series seems to be 'consistent with what they were told by GRRM', but that's the problem: they haven't been told anything by GRRM as per their own admission (https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/...owrunners-unaware-george-rr-martin-books-end/). He (GRRM) has said that the ending of the TV show will bear some general similarities to how he's planning on ending the novels, but that's not because David and Dan know anything about said ending.

I thought he gave them an outline to follow.

 

[DigificWriter]

I thought he gave them an outline to follow.

Not according to what they said in that article.

I'm willing to bet that the only things they know about the ending are that GRRM wants it to mirror the Scouring of the Shire sequence from The Lord of the Rings (because he's said as much) and that it's going to be 'bittersweet' (also because he's said as much).

The fact that they have to rely on unearned melodrama and writing characters in ways that ignore everything that has been previously established just for the sake of getting to an ending where nothing the 'hero' characters - especially the female characters - did means anything pretty much demonstrates this.

 

[dahj]

It's been mentioned a few times how the way David and Dan are choosing to end the series seems to be 'consistent with what they were told by GRRM', but that's the problem: they haven't been told anything by GRRM

"It's been mentioned a few times..."

You have been preaching for the last 50 pages of this thread how the show is going to end exactly like the books and they know exactly what will happen because they've had extensive talks with GRRM where he told them exactly how things are gonna go down.