Supergirl - Season Four

[theenglish]

Yes, but that's due to the showrunners tripping over themselves trying to make him the Ultimate Boogeyman of the Universe for their message about immigration, which has more than one valid perspective, but you will not see that on Supergirl, because any opposition (well, there's only one kind of opposition on this show) is instantly painted as the return of the Third Reich, which is irresponsible on the showrunners' part. That's why the earlier nuance you referred to is just a memory from the past.

I don't think the show is dealing with immigration but specifically about current attitudes toward immigration and refugees. The attitudes that are openly stated in public but certain members of right wing America (or Europe as well) that accepts the immigrants that "look like we do" but rejects the different. Where politicians only need to say that Middle Easterners are amongst a group of refugees seeking asylum (because of political situations created by the U.S. and Russia in the eighties) and like-minded people nod their heads and say yes. This is specifically the alien metaphor as presented in the show.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Seriously, what comics does/did Kirk Prime read?? Susan Richards pregnancy was a major subplot in FF. The birth and death of Arthur, jr impacted Aquaman comics for years.

No, you don't understand. Comics are COMPLETELY APOLITICAL and Supergirl has NEVER dealt with topical issues before.

Even though it's a newspaper-centered one.

ESPECIALLY because of it.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I think SG burned all the evidence "just in case" it survived the fire.

Speaking of wondering... do we know if the President IS the president, or is he a Lex minion wearing an image inducer?

Speaking of wondering, how did anyone sneak up on Kara?

Speaking of kryptonite... where the heck did the President get any since only Lena knows how to make it? Did Eve steal it or the recipe, and if so I assume that was how Lex got his hands on a supply but it doesn't explain why he left it behind for Lena to find.

As for Alex and the baby story line... I think its necessary to Alex' growth that she have a life beyond Kara and the DEO. The two are so joined at the hip (especially before the mindwipe) that Alex couldn't see anything but her sister even as she was trying to make a decision about something that will change the entire course of her life. Her role playing dialogue as Kara was quite telling, "... this was always my dream...there will never be a perfect time, its a gift..." was spot on. I really don't see TPTB having Supergirl settle down and raise a family, but I can see Kara being an AWESOME aunt/babysitter which would give her more dimensions.

As for the Lena/Kara betrayal crap, Its like that line from "Tremors", "Val, I do believe we decided to leave Perfection one GD day too late." Once Kara announced she will tell Lena, you KNOW someone else will spill the beans. Kara should have been strong enough to tell Lena on that plane.

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She should have started as soon as Lena complained that Eve lied to her every day they were together by reminding Lena, "You know, you lied to me, to Alex, every day this last year. First about making kryptonite, then neglecting to tell us some was stolen from your lab since I assume Lex didn't know how to make it. Then about the Harunel and your experiments to make super powered humans even before the government hired you to do the same. I assume they knew you were working on it because Lex told them. You complain about Supergirl never trusting you, but isn't it for the same reason you complain that can't trust others? Because of the secrets we keep and why we keep them?"

"Eve loved Lex and her family and she betrayed you for them."

"Lex loved himself and he's always betrayed you, and you knew that going in."

"And I love Alex & Eliza, Cat & James, Nia & Brainy, my birth mother and my cousin and his wife... and I lied to you every day to protect them all, even to protect Wynn the first person I ever told, in case he ever comes home. They all need protection because of my secret."

"Hell I let my sister, the one person whom I love more than anyone else on this planet get mind wiped to block all knowledge of my secret to protect her from intrusive DEO interrogations, no matter what that mid wipe cost me/us. Every day when I look into her face, I die a little knowing that half of our life is now a lie, but I can carry on knowing her ignorance makes her safer."

"And despite my desire to tell you the truth from the beginning, despite how much I came to rely on our friendship more and more, I kept lying to you because I could not risk losing one more person like I lost my mom, my cousin, Wynn, andnow my sister. Your mother warned me 3 years ago what would happen if you ever found out my secret, and I certainly got a sampling of that famous Luthor anger last year when I asked James to make sure there was no more kryptonite in your lab."

"But keeping this lie from you is taking too much a toll on my psyche and on our relationship. We either end it now because of the lies we've told each other, or we start anew to make something stronger."

" Let me start the way I wished I could have 3 years ago. "

"Hello, my name is Kara Zor-el, I came to this planet from Krypton when I was 13 to protect my baby cousin, but on the way my pod was knocked off course into the phantom zone where I remained for decades. By the time I arrived my cousin had grown up to become Superman and he brought me to the Danvers, who were friends of his, to be my new family. I was taught to hide my powers until one day a plane my foster sister was on was sabotaged and about to crash. I refused to let that happen. That was the first time in 10 years I flew."

 

[Charles Phipps]

Then Lena can subdue her with Kryptonite and turn her over to the Feds!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Lena knows.

Baker is a robot.

It's weird seeing President Sheridan being such a President Clarke.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

It's the same writers, though, so if their POV is as simplistic and one-sided as you insist, why did they bother creating that more nuanced earlier characterization of Lockwood in the first place?

From the evidence--and the direction they have taken with Lockwood, the earlier, nuanced characterization was never intended to remain, lest his point of view actually (and unintentionally) pose a logical problem for the showrunners' overall agenda. That's why Lockwood is no longer arguing his early points, and is just another stereotype "hate monger" character, like something one would see in a Very Special Episode of a bad 80's TV series.

Grief and anger can send a mind in many directions, but the murder of Lockwood's wife is treated as a means to an end for the character, instead of a deep personal loss in the way his father was early on. In fact, the way the showrunners have handled it, the murder of his wife (not the funeral) is not even treated sympathetically overall, yet her murderer is painted as the victim who needs to be protected. This is just more of reducing Lockwood to a self-destructing Boogeyman figure.

I wrote about my reasons a bit here. As I said there, it's never struck me as organic to Alex's character, and the constant blubbering about it last season verged on the neurotic. It does absolutely no favors to an otherwise terrific character, IMO.

Well, her wanting to be a mother adds a dimension to a character who was too stuck in "I'm the agent." / "I'm Kara's sister" box, but that did not explore more of who she is, or what she desires out of life. Being a mother is a incredibly powerful instinct/desire, and for the Alex character, it helped give her an expanded life that does begin and end with a government bodysuit, or being an ear for her sister.

Speaking of wondering... do we know if the President IS the president, or is he a Lex minion wearing an image inducer?

Interesting idea. It would subvert expectations of just who he is, or far he would go in this season's arc.

Speaking of kryptonite... where the heck did the President get any since only Lena knows how to make it?

Lena says she's the only one who knows how to make it, but there's no way for her to really know that to be true, or know the whereabouts of every particle of the rock that ever scattered across the earth.

As for Alex and the baby story line... I think its necessary to Alex' growth that she have a life beyond Kara and the DEO. The two are so joined at the hip (especially before the mindwipe) that Alex couldn't see anything but her sister even as she was trying to make a decision about something that will change the entire course of her life. Her role playing dialogue as Kara was quite telling, "... this was always my dream...there will never be a perfect time, its a gift..." was spot on

Agreed.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I don't think the show is dealing with immigration but specifically about current attitudes toward immigration and refugees. The attitudes that are openly stated in public but certain members of right wing America (or Europe as well) that accepts the immigrants that "look like we do" but rejects the different. Where politicians only need to say that Middle Easterners are amongst a group of refugees seeking asylum (because of political situations created by the U.S. and Russia in the eighties) and like-minded people nod their heads and say yes. This is specifically the alien metaphor as presented in the show.

That's not true. That's the attitude of far left wing writers that think they know what goes on in the heads of Americans. The show is not dealing with immigration as it is, but immigration as it perceives in their fictional world. Every country has a right to choose who enters and who does not, and they have the right to deal with people who violate their sovereignty. You will find that most Americans, on both sides of the aisle, are fine with LEGAL immigration, even from people that "don't look like them." It's a distinction the left wing extremists who write this show do not make, and it's a pretty big one.

As for Alex and the baby story line... I think its necessary to Alex' growth that she have a life beyond Kara and the DEO.

On a superhero show, this really isn't necessary. This is why Alex should get a spinoff. This would be like a Superman comic dealing with the domestic issues of Lucy Lane.

Even if this had a place, to do it at the end of the season and waste a third of an episode on something so irrelevant seems like a forced waste of time.

This show is so much better when they just focus on comic book storylines.

 

[Christopher]

Actually, I was wondering if Kara was leaving a message for Red Daughter and Lex, by creating an image for them to find. I thought it was seemed as if she was drawing something rather than blazing the room at random.

She wasn't "drawing," she was sweeping her heat vision up and down the rows of photos in order to be thorough. And the whole building was about to blow up anyway, as I said, which makes leaving a message even more pointless than burning them in the first place.

Speaking of wondering... do we know if the President IS the president, or is he a Lex minion wearing an image inducer?

Or Lex himself.

Speaking of wondering, how did anyone sneak up on Kara?

Because there was a hunk of kryptonite a few meters away from her, weakening her powers.

Speaking of kryptonite... where the heck did the President get any since only Lena knows how to make it? Did Eve steal it or the recipe, and if so I assume that was how Lex got his hands on a supply but it doesn't explain why he left it behind for Lena to find.

If Lena can make it, Lex probably can. Or he had a stash of it that the authorities never found.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

But this is why I think Alex should have a spin off--she can do her thing, and the superhero show can be a superhero show.

Superhero media has been rich with personal, non-costumed storylines; the greatest era of The Amazing Spider-Man comics (mid 60's - early 70's) were as much about the dramas of Peter Parker's personal life (and not always linked to his alter-ego) as it was the superhero side. In Superman the Movie, one of its strengths was Clark/Kal-El's devotion to Lois, so on that note, its not as if Alex wanting to be a mother is the series taking some unprecedented odd/bad direction for a superhero production.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The show is not dealing with immigration as it is, but immigration as it perceives in their fictional world. Every country has a right to choose who enters and who does not, and they have the right to deal with people who violate their sovereignty.

You remember that a lot of the Aliens had Amnesty?

They were legal.

Superman is illegal. Marriage to Lois, puts him on a path to citizenship, if he'd care to start the paperwork.

Supergirl is Illegal. If the Danvers had legally adopted her, which they probably did, fraudulently obviously, but superficially legally, that would have put her path to citizenship, if they had cared to start the paper work.

The Martian Manhunter came to Earth if not America 200 years ago, and how immigration worked back then, despite no paper work, he might be a legal citizen. Legal.

Dreamer is half American, and therefore all American. Legal.

Brainiac has paperwork. Although it would only be antedated if the UP officially recognizes that time travel is legally permissible, and they don't mind selling off the past's agency.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Superhero media has been rich with personal, non-costumed storylines; the greatest era of The Amazing Spider-Man comics (mid 60's - early 70's) were as much about the dramas of Peter Parker's personal life (and not always linked to his alter-ego) as it was the superhero side. In Superman the Movie, one of its strengths was Clark/Kal-El's devotion to Lois, so on that note, its not as if Alex wanting to be a mother is the series taking some unprecedented odd/bad direction for a superhero production.

But Peter WAS Spider-Man. He was the main character. We weren't getting a TV show or movie where a new character is introduced and we spend 1/3 of the time on that character's love life, which has absolutely nothing to do with the plot.

In Superman--you are right--Lois was Clark's love interest--but Clark was Superman--he was the main character.

Now if we were dealing with Kara's love life, it would make sense, though not in the context of the storyline right now.

Superman is illegal. Marriage to Lois, puts him on a path to citizenship, if he'd care to start the paperwork.

Not exactly true. A baby found under the age of 5 is not presumed to be illegal. Additionally, as an actual alien, there is no precedent in American law to deal with that.

You have a better point about Supergirl, though again--real alien. In both cases though, they were orphans adopted by US Citizens, and there may be laws for that.

Now let's talk about legal immigrants, and aliens on this show that are legal.

Once that happens, you are no longer dealing with an immigration issue--you are dealing with a national security issue, and this is not something modern day. It would be more analogous to the FDR internment camps, which is not a conservative ideal. It's also very different than the real world too, as aliens do have powers, and could pose a threat to national security. It would be more interesting if the show explored both sides and even had main characters falling on different sides of the debate.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If you can get these people into internment camps, then they are hardly the risk worthy of internment. Not a lot of Aliens have Superman level powers.

Besides there would have been extreme vetting, before any of the Aliens who got Amnesty would have been allowed Amnesty. So its really only the Aliens who are not on the amnesty list that you have to be worried about.

 

[dahj]

Now if we were dealing with Kara's love life, it would make sense

On this show James and Lena and Brainy and Nia have romantic subplots this season, previously J'onn and Winn also had them. All of them not title characters.

Why is Alex the only one of the lot according to you that has "no place" for it?

Why are you so scared of lesbians?

 

[Photoman15]

On this show James and Lena and Brainy and Nia have romantic subplots this season, previously J'onn and Winn also had them. All of them not title characters.

Why is Alex the only one of the lot according to you that has "no place" for it?

Why are you so scared of lesbians?

I don't think he's scared of lesbians. I think he is complaining that in this "superhero" show, with everything that's going on, the episode took 1/4 - 1/3 of it's time on Alex wanting to be a mommy. It really was out of place in this episode.

 

[Jayson1]

I think Baker is one of those clones. I bet in the final episode we will find out the real Baker has been locked up somewhere by Lex or even killed.

Jason

 

[Guy Gardener]

Nah. Kirk has been ranting about Lesbians for a wee while.

Meanwhile the writers room has going on about Alex wanting a kid for 2 years now "on and off". That's her arc. If the audience did not like Alex's desperately seeking baby arc, then feedback would have told them to quit it.

Of course it's not just homophobes who would be against this arc, some people in the audience just really hate babies, and really hate people going on and fucking on about how special their children are.

Babies always show up in a TV show if it runs long enough and they usually suck.

 

[dahj]

I don't think he's scared of lesbians.

Could have fooled me with all the whinging about shipping all to a separate show so he wouldn't have to look at them...

 

[Christopher]

I don't think he's scared of lesbians. I think he is complaining that in this "superhero" show, with everything that's going on, the episode took 1/4 - 1/3 of it's time on Alex wanting to be a mommy. It really was out of place in this episode.

That's not how ensemble TV series work, though. There's no requirement for every episode to maintain a constant amount of focus on the lead character or story arc, because the nature of the format is that you get to shift attention between different characters' arcs and balance out the amount of focus they get in different episodes. And the reason you populate a cast with multiple different characters is that their stories are different from each other and that gives you more variety and flexibility in storytelling. A show that did exactly the same unvarying thing every week would get boring.

Besides, there's nothing remotely new about superhero fiction focusing on supporting characters' personal drama and relationship alongside the superhero action. That's pretty much the trademark of Stan Lee's writing style that shaped how modern comics are told -- he revitalized and deepened superhero storytelling by merging it with elements of the other genres he and his collaborators had worked on before the superhero revival, including romance and humor comics along with horror, sci-fi, and so forth. So anyone who thinks that relationship drama has no place in superhero fiction is about 60 years behind the times. Heck, more like 70 years, since the Silver Age had books like Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane and Wonder Woman under Robert Kanigher where the stories focused more on their heroines' love lives than on action or crimefighting.

 

[Kirk Prime]

If you can get these people into internment camps, then they are hardly the risk worthy of internment. Not a lot of Aliens have Superman level powers.

Besides there would have been extreme vetting, before any of the Aliens who got Amnesty would have been allowed Amnesty. So its really only the Aliens who are not on the amnesty list that you have to be worried about.

These aliens are actually not human, and while sentient, the governments of the world would have to debate on how to treat them, which would lead to some very interesting discussion. You're right that not a lot of aliens would be Superman level--in fact, very few species are as powerful as Kryptonians in a yellow sun, but we have seen many of them are far superior physically than the average human.

On this show James and Lena and Brainy and Nia have romantic subplots this season, previously J'onn and Winn also had them. All of them not title characters.

Why is Alex the only one of the lot according to you that has "no place" for it?

Why are you so scared of lesbians?

What other romance was shoved into the plot? There's no fear. If Alex were straight, do you think these writers would actually have given her this much subplot that has no relevance to the plot?

And for what it's worth, I agree about the other examples you gave. But at least in many cases, they were organic to the show, where with Alex, it was not. Alex adopting a baby had NO place in this week's episode, and if she were straight, you might see that. You didn't see Jimmy and Lena in this episode. Nor Brainy and Dreamer. It had no place.

Nah. Kirk has been ranting about Lesbians for a wee while.

Meanwhile the writers room has going on about Alex wanting a kid for 2 years now "on and off". That's her arc. If the audience did not like Alex's desperately seeking baby arc, then feedback would have told them to quit it.

Of course it's not just homophobes who would be against this arc, some people in the audience just really hate babies, and really hate people going on and fucking on about how special their children are.

Babies always show up in a TV show if it runs long enough and they usually suck.

And this entire arc has no place on this show. This is a character that didn't exist in the comics, in a storyline that is not relevant to this show. It's shoved in there so that when people complain, fake outrage can occur from people and people can shout "homophobe" to be "woke." I have no problem if Alex had her own show or there was a similar show about someone just like her--a bad ass lesbian that has a home life. But it has no place on a show about Supergirl.

CW just likes to check boxes so they can pat themselves on the back and get fake outraged when called out on it.

 

[Finn]

She wasn't "drawing," she was sweeping her heat vision up and down the rows of photos in order to be thorough. And the whole building was about to blow up anyway, as I said, which makes leaving a message even more pointless than burning them in the first place.

mmm yeah