Supergirl - Season Four

[Kirk Prime]

If the showrunners' were truly upset that Hillary lost, they would have made Baker the alien President and Marsdin the human vice president. Making the female president an alien with the illegitimate claim on the office would be a slap in the face of a Hillary presidency and a dog whistle to the alt rights to further descry the 1st female American presidency on our world.

I think they would have gone in another direction had Hillary won. I think their hatred of Trump drives their show.

... then again so would Riverdale, Supernatural and The Flash.

Maybe, but notice that Supergirl's decline is higher than the three shows you mention, and its ratings are about half of the Flash's in the 18-49 demographic, despite airing on the most watched night of the week.

What frustrates me most is that I think Supergirl could be the best of all of them with a creative team that cared more about telling hero stories than campaigning against Trump.

Ignoring the crossover, I don't think there was any episode better on all 5 shows that was better than the Lex two parter earlier this season. I don't know how the storyline will end the finale, but that two parter was top level stuff.

 

[Christopher]

The Earth 38's can vote for anyone they want, they are not "our" voters, although they did not vote Baker for President, they voted for Marsdin.

They voted for the ticket of Marsdin and Baker. When you vote for a vice president, it's always with the understanding that they might have to take over as president. That's the primary reason the job exists. (Heck, a lot of the Republicans who voted for Trump/Pence were probably hoping/expecting that Trump would crash and burn quickly and be impeached by Congress or removed by his own cabinet under the 25th Amendment, so that they could get the Pence presidency they really wanted.)

So as a rule, a VP who becomes president is someone who was elected for that job by the voters. One rare exception was Gerald Ford, who was appointed as VP after the elected VP resigned. So his presidency was controversial in part because nobody actually voted for him.

If the showrunners' were truly upset that Hillary lost, they would have made Baker the alien President and Marsdin the human vice president.

Marsdin was revealed as an alien in her debut appearance, "Welcome to Earth," which aired on October 2016, about 2 weeks before the November election. So at the time it was written and filmed, the producers did not know who would win the election, and they were probably expecting a Clinton victory along with most everyone else. (Even Trump expected to lose, since the whole campaign was just one more moneymaking scam.)

Making the female president an alien with the illegitimate claim on the office would be a slap in the face of a Hillary presidency and a dog whistle to the alt rights to further descry the 1st female American presidency on our world.

Would it? This is a show whose lead character is an illegal immigrant who lies about her origins and identity yet is portrayed as an unambiguous hero. I doubt the showrunners would've expected their core audience to hate Marsdin for being essentially the same as Supergirl. Even when Marsdin was exposed and forced to step down, the show's sympathies clearly remained with Marsdin, and the people who forced her out were portrayed as murderous bigots and extremists rather than patriots defending the Constitution. They may have technically had the law on their side, but many laws throughout history have served oppressors and harmed the oppressed. The only way we've ever made any progress in civil rights was by challenging and overturning discriminatory laws. So I don't think the showrunners wanted or expected their core audience to value the letter of the law above the equal rights and value of those excluded by it.

 

[Charles Phipps]

The show writers have made no secret of their disdain for the Trump Presidency but there's a difference between the Children of Liberty and the Trump Voters even in the context of the setting. The Trump Voters as depicted in the setting are the public as a whole who are shocked and appalled by the election of an alien under false pretenses, so they've had their love of Pro-Alien legislation repealed.

The Children of Liberty are the hardcore fanatics of the setting that never liked aliens and have been driven by their hatred the entire time. They're meant to be the Neo-Nazis and White Supremecists who pretend to be the Border Patrol (or form their own ones), the Charlottesville gang, KKK, and otherwise white nationalist terrorist groups. Maybe a bit of ICE since Lockwood is now the head of Homeland Security. The language used, the fact they have tiki torches, and so on makes it so the subtelty is out the window. All they need is to have Lockwood say, "I'm so proud of you, my son." "I'm a proud boy, dad."

It's definitely a political statement but it's a bit like FAR CRY 5 in that a lot of fans were irritated that the villains were not Trump supporters but were insane militia cultists. It's very much a political statement still but against a much more specific group of people. The Children of Liberty are completely unsympathetic irredeemable assholes but they're not meant to be the public at large.

The public at large is depicted as misled not evil.

It's not like comics haven't had groups like Children of Liberty before either. Superman fought the KKK on his radio show (causing an actual dip in their numbers--a rare moments comics justified themselves as a medium), Marvel fought the Sons of the Serpent, and the Punisher fought some crazy border patrol people as well.

My big problem with the Children of Liberty is that they're depicted as untouchable. They're terrorists in-show and out of show so Manchester Black shooting a bunch of them isn't a Moral Event Horizon (TV tropes). In fact, in my Red as Hell state, a man shooting five trespassers intending to do harm is the very definition of proper conservative gun use.

Would it? This is a show whose lead character is an illegal immigrant who lies about her origins and identity yet is portrayed as an unambiguous hero. I doubt the showrunners would've expected their core audience to hate Marsdin for being essentially the same as Supergirl.

Secret identities have often been called out as having a fairly dark and nasty undercurrent to them as they require people to lie to the faces of their supposed friends and loved ones. It's why it's frequently deconstructed in even things like All Star Superman where Lois says, "So you're finally telling me the truth. Which, doesn't that mean you've been lying to me the whole time?"

Even then, Marsdin lied under oath and is a perjurer. It's hard to believe you stand for Truth and Justice (and the National City Way) if you lie under oath.

Mind you, I fully believe the showmakers didn't expect the fandom to believe Marsdin SHOULD have resigned over this but that has been a fairly harsh undercurrent with a lot of the fandom. Even if you're totally happy with (alien or otherwise) immigration in real life.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Superman has a long history of using thinly veiled versions of bigoted groups, the radio did major damage to the KKK turning them into a joke.

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Going after the alt-right is carrying on that proud tradition. Hating immigrants isn’t a political opinion, it’s hate. Especially locking people for trying to get here legally.

Superman and Supergirl are immigrants themselves, Superman was created by immigrants. Our country has been made richer and better because of immigrants, it’s why nearly all Americans are here now. The show has used that history and certain current events to craft a story that’s actually relevant. I don’t know why that upsets certain people, whether they just want stories completely divorced from the real world or they think they’re being made into the villain. But the show is making an excellent point and it’s needed. Supergirl is representing the heart of America, much like Superman. As an immigrant herself, she supports others and tries to make her new home a better place. The villains hate immigrants like her and even tried poison the atmosphere against her, poisoning the heart of America, just like the alt-right who openly speak of all non-white people leaving the country “peacefully”. Any ties to Trump are due to him being unable to condemn them for some reason, possibly because he has no idea of what they are or more horrifically silent agreement.

 

[Christopher]

The show writers have made no secret of their disdain for the Trump Presidency but there's a difference between the Children of Liberty and the Trump Voters even in the context of the setting. The Trump Voters as depicted in the setting are the public as a whole who are shocked and appalled by the election of an alien under false pretenses, so they've had their love of Pro-Alien legislation repealed.

That's grossly oversimplifying the in-show situation. The anti-alien sentiment in the public was already there as a result of three consecutive season finales' worth of alien invasions. We've seen Cadmus leading the anti-alien hate movement since season 2, and in season 4 they capitalized on the public's existing fear of aliens as a result of those invasions. It was Cadmus's (and Lex's) employees Mercy and Otis Graves, along with Ben Lockwood and his Children of Liberty, who engineered Marsdin's exposure as an alien in order to give more appearance of legitimacy to their already-existing cause, to shift the Overton Window to a point where anti-alien xenophobia could be spun as a reasonable position to discuss in public rather than just paranoid ranting on the dark web. The Marsdin reveal just reinforced what was already there.

Superman has a long history of using thinly veiled versions of bigoted groups, the radio did major damage to the KKK turning them into a joke.

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And that was just one of a series of post-WWII storylines they did about Superman fighting hate groups, anti-immigrant politicians, and aspiring fascists. At the time, I found the portrayal of some of their villains in that vein to be broad and cartoony and exaggerated for the kids, but then I heard Trump spouting almost the exact same rhetoric and acting exactly like the hatemongering frauds in the radio stories.

Superman and Supergirl are immigrants themselves, Superman was created by immigrants.

By the children of immigrants, rather. Well, Joe Shuster was an immigrant in the sense that he was born in Toronto and moved to Cleveland as a boy, but his parents were immigrants from Ukraine. Jerry Siegel was born in Cleveland to Lithuanian immigrant parents. Both of them, as well as Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, were the sons of Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe, and thus had plenty of experience with bigotry and plenty of reason to denounce it in their comics.

 

[Kirk Prime]

This is hardly the same thing as the KKK, because the KKK, unlike Trump, are not fictional racists. Trump is also a fictional character that the writers in real life hate.

Also, I agree with you about immigrants, and as much as you may not want to hear it, so does Trump, and so do most conservatives. It's ILLEGAL immigration that is the big issue today. Aliens, as in from other planets, would be a separate animal if they really existed, one that does not have any precedent because there are no aliens in the real world.

Supergirl, as depicted on this show, does not represent the heartland of America at all. She represents Hollywood liberals, and their false perceptions.

Why this upsets people is because of how thinly veiled these writers are, and how clearly they are demonizing conservatives. Not alt right. Conservatives. They give one viewpoint, the liberal one, on multiple issues, not just immigration.

Supergirl is wrong here. The writers are wrong. It is the right of every nation to decide who it welcomes in its borders, and that includes the US. They don't even acknowledge the real issue, because they have made up a fake one so they can be more outraged and demonize any view that doesn't match their own. That is what upsets people.

And for what it's worth, at least with Superman, he would not be an illegal immigrant under our laws. The law does cover children under 5 where the origin is unknown.

As for Supergirl, on this show, we don't know what Superman did to explain Kara. It was never covered.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I think you’re intentionally trying to confuse the alt-right with conservatives. You seem to be one of the few because most conservatives are very aware they aren’t anything like the alt-right. So don’t say people, you’re just speaking for yourself.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I think you’re intentionally trying to confuse the alt-right with conservatives. You seem to be one of the few because most conservatives are very aware they aren’t anything like the alt-right. So don’t say people, you’re just speaking for yourself.

I'm not confusing anything. I think you are willfully ignoring that this show has taken a strong stance on every liberal issue they could find, and demonize anyone who disagrees. Trump is not alt right. The phrase "Make America Great Again" is not alt right. The idea that aliens with powers would pose a threat to national security is also not alt right. Neither is a nation deciding who they want within their borders.

The alt-right is NOT conservatives, but let's not pretend that these writers aren't demonizing Trump. They have been from the date he got elected. I am not even close to the only person who doesn't like when the show goes into politics. It's possible to do a show like this without being so offensive. This show has done that in many episodes. Even this year there were some strong episodes that didn't involve politics. And they were amazing.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I'm not confusing anything. I think you are willfully ignoring that this show has taken a strong stance on every liberal issue they could find, and demonize anyone who disagrees. Trump is not alt right. The phrase "Make America Great Again" is not alt right. The idea that aliens with powers would pose a threat to national security is also not alt right. Neither is a nation deciding who they want within their borders.

The alt-right is NOT conservatives, but let's not pretend that these writers aren't demonizing Trump. They have been from the date he got elected. I am not even close to the only person who doesn't like when the show goes into politics. It's possible to do a show like this without being so offensive. This show has done that in many episodes. Even this year there were some strong episodes that didn't involve politics. And they were amazing.

I think you have got a very weird premise in your arguments you need to take a step back from. The Alt-Right is under attack here and you have decided to defend it by claiming it's conservatives as a whole under attack. Everyone here seems to get that it's the Alt-RIght and you're arguing with us that it's not Trump which is not in dispute. So effectively you're the only person associating the Neo-Nazis with Trumpists which the Children of Liberty are the former of.

The show is critical of Trump but it's got two very different criticisms leveled at both.

1. The Children of Liberty are Nazis and fuck Nazis

2. Trump is bad for his policies but he's not as bad as Lockwood.

Basically, you're not accomplishing anything by arguing the point that no one is arguing against.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I'm not confusing anything. I think you are willfully ignoring that this show has taken a strong stance on every liberal issue they could find, and demonize anyone who disagrees. Trump is not alt right. The phrase "Make America Great Again" is not alt right. The idea that aliens with powers would pose a threat to national security is also not alt right. Neither is a nation deciding who they want within their borders.

The alt-right is NOT conservatives, but let's not pretend that these writers aren't demonizing Trump. They have been from the date he got elected. I am not even close to the only person who doesn't like when the show goes into politics. It's possible to do a show like this without being so offensive. This show has done that in many episodes. Even this year there were some strong episodes that didn't involve politics. And they were amazing.

You’re confusing it or intentionally trying to shift the argument to it. The show is not attacking conservatives no matter how much you insist that it is. It’s attacking Nazis and they deserve to be attacked. If anyone is forcing politics into something it’s you and that’s obvious to everyone.

 

[Christopher]

Everyone here seems to get that it's the Alt-RIght and you're arguing with us that it's not Trump which is not in dispute. So effectively you're the only person associating the Neo-Nazis with Trumpists which the Children of Liberty are the former of.

What? I don't want to derail this thread by getting too much into real-world politics, but it's naive to think that Trump's support is not intimately interwoven with white nationalism and the "Alt-Right."

 

[Charles Phipps]

What? I don't want to derail this thread by getting too much into real-world politics, but it's naive to think that Trump's support is not intimately interwoven with white nationalism and the "Alt-Right."

Edit:

No disagreement.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Hmmm, Is she evil because she is a Luthor or because she is a alien hunting billionaire capitalist?

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Or is she not evil at all, even though she is a bleeding heart pro-alien proletarian journalist?

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Or maybe the true evil in this series isn't ignorance of the other, its hatred of the other.

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There are so many amazing female relationships in this show, for good and for ill.

First and foremost... there's Kara and her gun toting big sister, Alex. Season 1 through 4. (Too many videos to just pick 1)

Then, way back in season 1 and early 2 there was Kara and the very liberal media magnate Cat Grant.

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A relationship ultimately replaced in season 2 by Kara and Lena, two diametrically opposed extremes constantly teaching each other to keep digging, even when all the evidence points the other way. There's always another side.

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I really liked and miss the "Sam, Lena, Kara, Alex" dynamic of season 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6UknHUVNd0

I even liked the villainesses, Reign and her evil "sisters", alien Queen Rhea, home grown terrorist Lillian, libertarian Live Wire, criminal Psyche, craxy Lex girlfriend Eve, Lena's evil mentor Mercy Graves and insurrectionist Aunt Astra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isjfJdxUibQ

Yes, there are also too many honorable mentions to mention but why let that stop me?

Like the foster mom Eliza, the biological mom Alura, the sister's ex fiance Maggie, Cat Grant's Alien ex-College Resident Assistant/US President Marsdin, the Fake Green Martian M'gann, the half-human/half-alien Nia, the is she good or is she not Col Haley. Hell, I even miss season 1's Lucy Lane, James' ex!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux6JSkcML4M

My point is... (and yes, I do have one) this show is ever so much more than just one story-line.


Its time to acknowledge it, to celebrate it and yes to wait in anticipation for how our super-friends plan to team up and take down yet another arch nemesis!

Much less what they will be doing in season 5's crossover!

 

[Charles Phipps]

I stated that part of why Alex works is that she's the Black Widow/Batwoman to Supergirl's Superness.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Supergirl
Season 4 / episode 20 - "Will The Real Miss Tessmacher Please Stand Up?"

SG/Kara: SG - Kara failing to consider the consequences of her again in not even suspecting that Lena's plane might have surveillance cameras installed...and it all falls apart for her if true.

Now that Kara is aware of Comrade Kara's existence, one would assume the first priority is to take this information to the proper authorites (innocently thinking the president had no relationship with Lex), but Kara was more concerned with trying to sell the idea of Comrade Kara having some trace of decency, instead of wanting to stop--as quickly as possible--the threat that has made her a fugitive from justice.

Now, I suspected the president would turn on Kara, but as a reporter, she should have left copies of the information with James just in case her plan fell apart. It remains to be seen if she had the foresight to protect herself in that way.

Kara being so willing to reveal her true identity makes no sense, as she still has a number of reasons not to trust Lena and the experiments she conducts beneath her notice.

Lena: "Humans make mistakes. My technology does not." Sounds like the kind of statement she will live to regret.

Eve: Not your father's Tessmacher, to be sure.

James / Kelly: Kelly seemed upset that James will not suffer the same physical issues regular humans do.

Interesting that initially, James was not too thrilled with being fireproof (or invulnerable in general). He seems to be happy he has recovered, but for the moment, he's not looking at his new condition as a dream come true.

Lockwood / George Lockwood: His grief--as expected--turned into building rage quickly. James should have thought twice about revealing his powers to Lockwood, a person seeking an edge against aliens.

George feeling abandoned was also expected, but the gravity of Lockwood's point about George's grandfather and now mother slips by him.

Alex: While the adoption sub-plot was going to rise to the surface again, Kelly suddenly being so joined at the hip to Alex is unrealistically moving toward the relationship, instead of letting this play out over a more believable period of time.

NOTES: James, J'onn and Nia cannot be so clueless as to think they will not be considered public enemies, and James--in throwing the truck--can be accused of attempted murder. That is completely out of character for James. but the showrunner's agenda comes first--even at a main character's expense. Moreover, James has a sister--a major detail the showrunners should consider as she should be a target thanks to her brother's actions.

Next, the penultimate episode of the season (along with another flashback), with the telegraphing title, "Red Dawn". I'm going to assume it will not be as bad as the Milius film providing the inspiration for the episode's title.

GRADE: C.

 

[The Realist]

This was a mixed bag for me. The Kara/Lena stuff was solid, and easily the best part of the episode. They're always an enjoyable pairing, and Lena has been getting some meaty material lately, which McGrath plays very effectively. The scene where Kara discovers Red Daughter's quarters was also pretty powerful, with her realization that her enemies know her identity, and that her family and friends are in greater danger as a result.

Lockwood seems to have lost most of the nuance and believability that made him an interesting antagonist earlier in the season. Now he's just a snarling lunatic, and the addition of superpowers is not a great idea on the part of the writers, for him or James. I wish the showrunners would study Superman's lore and legacy and understand how important a superhero's relationships with ordinary people can be, instead of feeling the need to have everyone in the cast suit and power up.

The less said about maudlin baby-obsessed Alex the better. I thought that thread had been quietly and wisely dropped, but it came roaring back with a weepy vengeance here. Ugh.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Well James IS the first superhero other than Kara on the show.

 

[The Realist]

Well James IS the first superhero other than Kara on the show.

Not sure what you mean. J'onn has been established since the first season, James became a non-powered costumed vigilante in the second, and this season we have Dreamer. Not to mention Mon-El, Saturn Girl, and Brainiac 5.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I don't want to derail this thread by getting too much into real-world politics, but it's naive to think that Trump's support is not intimately interwoven with white nationalism and the "Alt-Right."

Unless you actually follow the facts and know what a conservative is. The above is just a liberal delusion, but unfortunately, Hollywood is controlled by delusional liberals, who demonize anything that disagrees with their ultra left socialist doctrines, and this show is a perfect example of that.

I think Alex should get a spin off. As her storyline has no place in a superhero show, and is completely irrelevant to what is actually happening, if the writers want to write about her, give her a show of her own, and go to town.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Lockwood seems to have lost most of the nuance and believability that made him an interesting antagonist earlier in the season.

Now he's just a snarling lunatic

Yes, but that's due to the showrunners tripping over themselves trying to make him the Ultimate Boogeyman of the Universe for their message about immigration, which has more than one valid perspective, but you will not see that on Supergirl, because any opposition (well, there's only one kind of opposition on this show) is instantly painted as the return of the Third Reich, which is irresponsible on the showrunners' part. That's why the earlier nuance you referred to is just a memory from the past.

While the president in league with Lex (or similar parties) warrants his removal /arrest, it does not take one step toward addressing the real world complexities of the immigration issue. That said, do not be too surprised if this all ends with:

• Lockwood killing over from some side effect, and/or suffering from some psychological breakdown.
• His son killing him, or perhaps George dies, so Lockwood gives up and/or commits suicide.
• Lex ends up back in prison (or receives some drug to remove the benefits of the serum).
• A call for Marsdin to return, making some speech from the Oval Office with Supergirl at her side, or something along those lines.

Now he's just a snarling lunatic, and the addition of superpowers is not a great idea on the part of the writers, for him or James.

The showrunners have rarely had any noticeable interest in / or knew how to write for James Olsen; in season one, it was about his being his own man out from the shadows of being "Superman's Pal" . Eventually, the Guardian storyline is introduced, where it quickly moved from James expressing his need to do something more, to slipping into being a disaster, with James revealing his true identity, effectively erasing any story potential for a non-powered crimefighter with what should have been Olsen's unique perspective. But again, the showrunners did not and continue to not know how to write for Olsen, so the superpowers sub-plot comes into play.

In theory, this should be the beginning of his difficulties with the idea of not being fully human anymore (and possibly understanding how regular humans would see that as threatening), but now he's throwing trucks at people. It remans to be seen if that rather small Fortress of Solitude moment of James not being thrilled (during testing) was a seed planted to go in the "not quite human" direction.

IThe less said about maudlin baby-obsessed Alex the better. I thought that thread had been quietly and wisely dropped, but it came roaring back with a weepy vengeance here. Ugh.

What is your reason for not warming to the Alex/baby sub-plot at all?