About Mirror Georgiou in ”Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2“

[Alan Roi]

Thing is, Georgiou hasn't changed one bit. Although it's played for laughs, she suggests mass destruction, genocide and as the OP pointed out, laughed with glee when her enemy died in agony. She's expressed zero regret for past actions. The only reason she's an ally is her love of Michael.

Completely changing overnight would be unrealistic, don't you think? Have we seen Klingons change overnight? Yeah, Seven did practically, but how realistic was that? And how quickly did Seven come around to feeling remorse for what she did, or the cannibalism she commited after she was cut off from the Borg collective?

 

[Lord Garth]

Completely changing overnight would be unrealistic, don't you think? Have we seen Klingons change overnight? Yeah, Seven did practically, but how realistic was that?

I going to have to disagree with you about Seven. She and Janeway constantly fought with each other during her first season on the show.

 

[Alan Roi]

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that everyone who did participate in the Nazi crimes was guilty and should not be excused because they lived in an environment where it was expected of them to do these crimes.

And I'm sure when Georgiou gets caught committing crimes in this reality, she'll likely get treated as if she's a criminal in the federation universe. Till then, IMO, she's an Operation Paperclip like character.

 

[Lord Garth]

Thing is, Georgiou hasn't changed one bit. Although it's played for laughs, she suggests mass destruction, genocide and as the OP pointed out, laughed with glee when her enemy died in agony. She's expressed zero regret for past actions. The only reason she's an ally is her love of Michael.

Just to be clear, this is the sort of change I'm hoping to see next season.

 

[Alan Roi]

I going to have to disagree with you about Seven. She and Janeway constantly fought with each other during her first season on the show.

And yet she's seen as O.K. and worthy of redemption.

 

[Kemaiku]

We were meant to be unsettled by her treatment of Control, reminding the viewer that although the evil muder bot was undone and the day was saved, the person doing it was not any better (or something like that).

We weren't meant to be leaping out of our chairs cheering for her doing that, I'm not sure why you keep implying that was the case.

She was raised in a totalitarian empire spanning centuries and thousands of lightyears. Born into the power structure and privilage of Terran blood and trained to be a survivor as there was always someone with a knife ready to take her out at any moment.

This is a system that goes away beyond anything the Nazi's could have created or maintained. Billions of people controlled day in day out for generations the same way, that's a crushing weight of evil and villainy to be raised in. Frankly it's a wonder anyone on Discovery is alive, so obviously there's something going on that she enjoys the idea of them all being alive.

 

[Starflight]

There were reasons people called Seven 'Borg Barbie' after all. Georgiou is not such a simplistic being.

I don't think I've ever heard that. I used to play with my sister's Barbie as a kid, would have loved a Borg edition.

Have to say though, as it stands right now, I think Seven is a much, much more complex character than Georgiou. Georgiou has room to become way deeper than she is now, but she seems to have been firmly stuck in the say-cool-Marvel-lines stage of character development for most of season two.

The only angle that makes her interesting so far is her relationship with Michael, hopefully having them stuck in close proximity on the same ship in the far future should give that aspect of the character a chance to come to the forefront.

 

[Lord Garth]

I don't think I've ever heard that. I used to play with my sister's Barbie as a kid, would have loved a Borg edition.

Have to say though, as it stands right now, I think Seven is a much, much more complex character than Georgiou. Georgiou has room to become way deeper than she is now, but she seems to have been firmly stuck in the say-cool-Marvel-lines stage of character development for most of season two.

The only angle that makes her interesting so far is her relationship with Michael, hopefully having them stuck in close proximity on the same ship in the far future should give that aspect of the character a chance to come to the forefront.

Yeah. Being in a storyline where she was just trying to constantly one-up Leland to make him look bad and then having to fight Control is not a story conductive to the change people are looking for. Being separated from everything and on a ship with Burnham on a daily basis -- on the other hand -- is conductive to that type of change.

Plus, I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, we're talking about the 23rd Century. This is Pre-Data. This is the era of "Kirk destroys the computer!" It's in keeping with this time period that no one thinks of artificial intelligence as being a person. If you have no organic components, neither TOS nor DSC recognizes you as a person. That's why before, in other threads, I was saying I love Control because it sounds like a TOS type of adversary.

Anyone here ever want to smash a computer that was being uncooperative? I bet all of us have at one point. Because we don't see our computer as a person. Hell, look at the end of Office Space. But we wouldn't want to smash a person for being uncooperative.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

Anyone here ever want to smash a computer that was being uncooperative? I bet all of us have at one point. Because we don't see our computer as a person. But we wouldn't want to smash a person for being uncooperative.

I have those Office Space moments all the time.

 

[fireproof78]

So what did you think when Nhan expressed fun at the idea of Georgiou enjoying the pain of a dying Leland? No condescension here, I'm honestly curious what you thought about that commentary about Georgiou (in a show that wants you to think for yourself, no less ).

Unsettled.

 

[Delta Vega]

She's a genocial, cannibalistic psychopath. She's only on "our side" because she's got a Momcrush on a duplicate of her daughter.

My reaction to the scene was laughter. She's crazy.

Well I wouldn't kiss her after she's eaten Kelpian sushi, but I still like her

 

[fireproof78]

We were meant to be unsettled by her treatment of Control, reminding the viewer that although the evil muder bot was undone and the day was saved, the person doing it was not any better (or something like that).

Yeah, that was my takeaway as well. There was nothing enjoyable, heroic or the like in that scene to my eyes.

 

[Jadeb]

Speaking more broadly, there’s an ugly undercurrent to Discovery that I find distasteful and out of line with the traditional spirit of the franchise. It starts early with Burnham murdering the Klingon for revenge (rather than stunning him), then the show plays nasty business in the MU as light entertainment, then we have Starfleet ready to genocide the Klingons. Season two has been less egregious, but the show still refuses to put much thought into its premises or the choices of its characters. So we get quippy, murderous Georgiou and zero followup on the fate of the Ba’ul. But hey, look, Georgiou is being funny and the Kelpians are riding to the rescue!

With the shift to serialization, I hoped we’d get more mature, consequence-rich drama, but instead they’re playing it like a really long blockbuster movie, and that’s kind of a bummer for me. I don’t mind ugliness in Trek, but I do mind thoughtless ugliness.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

Under the old formula of 1 episode plots, it was more acceptable to have characters experience a radical change of heart after 40 minutes or so, but I can appreciate a more realistic approach to a character that's lived totally differently for her entire life.

But she was accused of being too lenient, too soft by Lorca. The rebellion was for the purpose of becoming more brutal and more xenophobic than what the Emperor had been doing. All the same, she'd been saying over & over that she savored the suffering of her enemies, so it shouldn't be a surprise that she carried through with her words.

Looking at what Section 31 does later in the DS9 era, it shouldn't be a shock that this kind of gray exists in a character having moments of compassion along with moments of brutality.

 

[fireproof78]

But hey, look, Georgiou is being funny and the Kelpians are riding to the rescue!

I didn't chuckle...

 

[Michael]

Completely changing overnight would be unrealistic, don't you think? Have we seen Klingons change overnight? Yeah, Seven did practically, but how realistic was that? And how quickly did Seven come around to feeling remorse for what she did, or the cannibalism she commited after she was cut off from the Borg collective?

Still not sure how Seven's situation is remotely the same as Georgiou's. The key difference being that Seven never had a chance to decide with her own free will whether she wanted to take part in the Borg's atrocities. Georgiou on the other hand has free will. She didn't have to be the head of a genocidal organization.

We were meant to be unsettled by her treatment of Control, reminding the viewer that although the evil muder bot was undone and the day was saved, the person doing it was not any better (or something like that).

We were? How is that supported by the episode or anything, really?

We weren't meant to be leaping out of our chairs cheering for her doing that, I'm not sure why you keep implying that was the case.

Yeah, right, leaping out of our chairs cheering was exactly what I am implying.

What I'm actually saying is that I have trouble accepting Georgiou, a character that enjoys inflicting pain, as a hero on a Star Trek show. The episode and the writer seem to tell me that it's cool and heroic when she laughs at Leland's pain. I'm bewildered that that's what they are trying to portray. I'm perfectly capable to accept that others are viewing it differently. And in fact, I find it interesting that some of you are now saying that you feel the episode is portraying the exact opposite.

Unsettled.

Then I actually don't think we are too far apart with our opinions on this matter. I think it's unsettling when two hero characters agree that watching someone or something suffer is “fun”. Not because I want all my fictional protagonists to be heroes with impeccable morals, but because this is Star Trek. And Star Trek, for me at least, traditionally tried to portray a future where being moral and compassionate was the goal of the people we are watching.

 

[fireproof78]

Then I actually don't think we are too far apart with our opinions on this matter. I think it's unsettling when two hero characters agree that watching someone or something suffer is “fun”. Not because I want all my fictional protagonists to be heroes with impeccable morals, but because this is Star Trek. And Star Trek, for me at least, traditionally tried to portray a future where being moral and compassionate was the goal of the people we are watching.

We are not far apart, but for me, having morally questionable characters in Star Trek is also a part of it. Otherwise, what does humanity have to grow past?

I don't consider Georgiou heroic, or a hero. She might be a protagonist but that is not the same thing. We have plenty of heroic characters in Star Trek, so I am not opposed to seeing characters, especially ones who do not have the background cultural morals like Prime humanity (cultural imperialism, anyone?) given the opportunity to grow. That is, to me, more what Trek is all about, optimism that humanity can grow past our savage roots. Well, the Mirror Universe is the "flower of humanity" as Spock would put it. Can that flower grow past it's past?

 

[Kemaiku]

We were? How is that supported by the episode or anything, really?

You realise she essentially created her own Agony Booth from her universe to kill someone in? how was that not a callback to her more evil scenes in the MU in season 1?

 

[Ovation]

And Star Trek, for me at least, traditionally tried to portray a future where being moral and compassionate was the goal of the people we are watching.

It's far more interesting, though, if it isn't the goal of ALL the people we are watching (affiliated with the "good side"). The behaviour exhibited by Georgiou is disturbing, precisely because it is OUT of alignment with the norm. Consequently, she poses a challenge to the norm and the interesting part of the equation is whether she, or the norm, will win out in the end.

 

[Michael]

We are not far apart, but for me, having morally questionable characters in Star Trek is also a part of it. Otherwise, what does humanity have to grow past?

That's true. Although I hardly get the feeling the writers really want to somehow let Georgiou grow past her morally questionable characteristics.

You realise she essentially created her own Agony Booth from her universe to kill someone in? how was that not a callback to her more evil scenes in the MU in season 1?

Good point. I hadn't seen it that way. Truth be told, when watching the scene in question originally I wasn't really sure what to think of it and was ambiguous about how I was meant to be assessing it. But the quote from Paradise lead me to lean more to “they actually expect me to root for her behavior”. It's mostly her quote that lets me doubt they really wanted me to see Georgiou as a character “not any better” than the evil murdering bot.

It's far more interesting, though, if it isn't the goal of ALL the people we are watching (affiliated with the "good side"). The behaviour exhibited by Georgiou is disturbing, precisely because it is OUT of alignment with the norm. Consequently, she poses a challenge to the norm and the interesting part of the equation is whether she, or the norm, will win out in the end.

As it stands it actually looks to me like they have her and her way of doing things win out, not the norm of the good side. Her morally questionable behavior is not only left unchallenged, it is even celebrated by another character (“Yum yum!”). But yeah, going forward it will be interesting to see how they'll handle Georgiou's character.