About Mirror Georgiou in ”Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2“

[Kemaiku]

What immoral act of Georgio's has the audience been asked to cheer and root for?

Sympathising with getting rid of Control, probably. Cheering her on not so much, just a reminder of who she is and where she comes from.

Given they want her to be a part of two more seasons of Trek (DSC3/S31 1) they're still considering her character a work in progress. Ambiguity is still a big thing with her actions/motivations and how we should feel about them.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't feel ambiguous towards her. I don't like her and don't trust her.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Seven of Nine did some comparably immoral things as a borg. Should she have been thrown out of the Voyager when she didn't offer perfect Starfleet behavior? The Klingons engage in plenty of things the Federation considers pretty horrific, yet they are still allies in the TNG-VOY era, again, serve in Starfleet. Should they be thrown out of Starfleet and disavowed as allies when they don't measure up on every level?

Seven of Nine was controlled by the Borg, and learned compassion as a human. This could not be a more different situation if it tried.

 

[Kemaiku]

I mean if they're planning to have a redemption arc of some sort. If not and they're keeping her evil, then yeah we should just expect more of the same from her in the future (no pun intended).

Seven of Nine was controlled by the Borg, and learned compassion as a human. This could not be a more different situation if it tried.

Georgiou was raised in a universe where everyone is pushed from birth to act a certain way, with the constant threat of extreme torture and death if they don't. An overbearing, extremely controlling, abusive influence that gets into someones mind every minute of everyday? hmm.

 

[fireproof78]

Seven of Nine was controlled by the Borg, and learned compassion as a human. This could not be a more different situation if it tried.

Mirror Georgiou was raised in a culture where backstabbing, torture, murder and manipulation were part of daily life. Assassinations occurred frequently, and was the means of success. It was survival of the fittest in government form.

She is a product of her culture, just like Seven was a product of the Borg. The whole thrust of Star Trek is that humanity can grow beyond their savage roots and choose "not to kill today."

But, apparently, expect for Georgiou.

I mean if they're planning to have a redemption arc of some sort. If not and they're keeping her evil, then yeah we should just expect more of the same from her in the future (no pun intended).

I doubt they will keep her evil.

 

[Michael]

I don't need commentary to know this behavior is not right.

My reaction is very simple-torture is wrong. That is part of my moral compass, has been for a long time. I don't need the writers telling me what to think when I am perfectly capable of thinking for myself. People on the "good side" can do evil things. It happens and is part of storytelling.

As I said above-I am capable of figuring this stuff out.

So what did you think when Nhan expressed fun at the idea of Georgiou enjoying the pain of a dying Leland? No condescension here, I'm honestly curious what you thought about that commentary about Georgiou (in a show that wants you to think for yourself, no less ).

 

[Lord Garth]

If the producers are that keen on keeping Michelle Yeoh as part of the franchise the best thing they could at this point would be to somehow bring back prime Georgiou to command Discovery season 3. There is a vacancy now there after all. I honestly don't think audiences are going to take to having a main character as mean as the mirror one is. No matter how much they keep on trying to soften her edges.

In most cases, I'd agree with you. Emperor Georgiou's no White Knight. Anyone who thinks so is out of their mind. As far as the Section 31 Series, Section 31 is gray to begin with. If they can get Georgiou to a gray enough place, it'll work for the purposes of that show. If someone can get behind Section 31 as a series, they can get behind a reformed Georgiou. If you can do one, you can do the other. Back when Lorca still looked like he was in a gray area, even people who didn't like Discovery said he was the best thing about it.

So they can connect with someone in a gray area, if the third season of DSC gets Georgiou to that point. But they have to do it. The one advantage Georgiou has over Lorca is that we don't have to worry about the rug being pulled out from underneath us with a reveal that she's from the Mirror Universe, because we already know going in.

This is my opening to say that Lorca being revealed as being from the Mirror Universe in and of itself wasn't enough to make me sour on the character. Mirror Spock was from the Mirror Universe and he was still an interesting, complicated (for the '60s), and conflicted character. They didn't have to turn Lorca into a black-hatted villain just because he was from the Mirror Universe, and I was disappointed with that choice.

 

[Alan Roi]

Seven of Nine was controlled by the Borg, and learned compassion as a human. This could not be a more different situation if it tried.

No it isn't. What do you think people in the Terran Empire are taught their entire lives? What are their options when it comes to survival? What kind of societal pressures are put upon them as their brains and personalities develop? What kind of roles in the Terran Empire does one have to play to survive?

 

[Starflight]

One difference is that Borg drones literally have no autonomy or free will, and Seven demonstrated a desire to change and to fight the Borg fairly early on (Georgiou still has time to undergo a similar shift in perspective, of course).

The only awful thing Seven really did of her own free will while under the Borg was forcefully reconnect herself and the three other drones from "Survival Instinct" who briefly became disconnected.

 

[Alan Roi]

One difference is that Borg drones literally have no autonomy or free will, and Seven demonstrated a desire to change and to fight the Borg fairly early on (Georgiou still has time to undergo a similar shift in perspective, of course).

And therefore Seven of Nine had it easy. Disconnected from the Borg she was desperate for guidance. I expect Georgiou's journey to be a lot more interesting if she can even managed it. Makes her a far more compelling character to follow, IMO. There were reasons people called Seven 'Borg Barbie' after all. Georgiou is not such a simplistic being.

 

[Michael]

No it isn't. What do you think people in the Terran Empire are taught their entire lives? What are their options when it comes to survival? What kind of societal pressures are put upon them as their brains and personalities develop? What kind of roles in the Terran Empire does one have to play to survive?

Sorry for the Godwin, but the thinking behind what you are describing here pretty much absolves every German in the second World War from being guilty of supporting the Nazis. “It's not their fault. It's just the environment they were living in forced them to participate” must sound really cynical in the ears of those who did revolt and rebel against the immoral environment.

 

[Alan Roi]

Sorry for the Godwin, but the thinking behind what you are describing here pretty much absolves every German in the second World War from being guilty of supporting the Nazis. “It's not their fault. It's just the environment they were living in forced them to participate” must sound like really cynic in the ears of those who did revolt and rebel against the immoral environment.

Yeah, that's extremely reductive to the point of making the claim that anyone who did not revolt and rebel were just as guilty as the Nazi's themselves for their crimes, the average Japanese citizen the same and so on and so on. The Nazi's were in power for about 7 years before WWII happened. The Terran Empire on the other hand had been the prevailing culture for several *generations* in Georgiou's world.

 

[F. King Daniel]

No it isn't. What do you think people in the Terran Empire are taught their entire lives? What are their options when it comes to survival? What kind of societal pressures are put upon them as their brains and personalities develop? What kind of roles in the Terran Empire does one have to play to survive?

Yet a whole rebellion sprang up, many of whom were Empire defectors. She ruled the Empire and could have instituted changes, had she wished.

 

[Kemaiku]

Sorry for the Godwin, but the thinking behind what you are describing here pretty much absolves every German in the second World War from being guilty of supporting the Nazis. “It's not their fault. It's just the environment they were living in forced them to participate” must sound really cynical in the ears of those who did revolt and rebel against the immoral environment.

The Borg Collective and Terran Empire have been around for centuries, bringing everyone into their ranks from birth, using techniques to inflict pain we can't imagine. The *entire* system is made up of them, not just one party, group, political persuation or national identity among many.

 

[Alan Roi]

Yet a whole rebellion sprang up, many of whom were Empire defectors. She ruled the Empire and could have instituted changes, had she wished.

I think you mistake the rebellion against her as being the 'good guys'. They were the folks who wanted a return to even worse things.

 

[Lord Garth]

Yet a whole rebellion sprang up, many of whom were Empire defectors. She ruled the Empire and could have instituted changes, had she wished.

Even those in charge have unofficial checks and balances. If she was seen as "too soft", someone ambitious underneath her would've killed her and taken over her spot.

To change the perspective, in "Point of Light", L'Rell had to show severed heads and tell everyone about a bomb in Qo'noS to make them fall into line. She had to show she was more badass than badass so she wouldn't be challenged by someone else.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I think you mistake the rebellion against her as being the 'good guys'. They were the folks who wanted a return to even worse things.

I'm talking about the rebellion from the ENT days, which seemingly evolved into the alliance led by Voq in the Disco Mirrorverse.

 

[Michael]

Yeah, that's extremely reductive to the point of making the claim that anyone who did not revolt and rebel were just as guilty as the Nazi's themselves for their crimes, the average Japanese citizen the same and so on and so on. The Nazi's were in power for about 7 years before WWII happened. The Terran Empire on the other hand had been the prevailing culture for several *generations* in Georgiou's world.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that everyone who did participate in the Nazi crimes was guilty and should not be excused because they lived in an environment where it was expected of them to do these crimes.

 

[Lord Garth]

I think you mistake the rebellion against her as being the 'good guys'. They were the folks who wanted a return to even worse things.

This too. Those rebelling could've been even worse.

Also, from Georgiou's perspective, she's the leader of a government where, from her perspective, she's doing what she thinks is the correct way of doing things. She doesn't think she's an Evil Emperor. She just thinks she's an Emperor.

In America, we talk about how great our Founding Fathers are. But they enslaved one race while committing genocide on another. I live on land that was stolen from Native Americans. Land that was stolen and built up on the backs of slave labor. But we're told these people are great? We have holidays devoted to them? In our society, we're told these people are heroes to look up to. From another perspective, they're evil and committed horrible acts.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Even those in charge have unofficial checks and balances. If she was seen as "too soft", someone ambitious underneath her would've killed her and taken over her spot.

To change the perspective, in "Point of Light", L'Rell had to show severed heads and tell everyone about a bomb in Qo'noS to make them fall into line. She had to show she was more badass than badass so she wouldn't be challenged by someone else.

Thing is, Georgiou hasn't changed one bit. Although it's played for laughs, she suggests mass destruction, genocide and as the OP pointed out, laughed with glee when her enemy died in agony. She's expressed zero regret for past actions. The only reason she's an ally is her love of Michael.