Spoilers Avengers: Endgame grade and discussion thread

[Shaka Zulu]

I've got my ticket to see it Friday morning. Normally I wait until after opening weekend to go see movies, but I had the day off anyway, and this time I just can't wait any longer than necessary.

Saw it last night at my usual theater (Toronto, at the Scotiabank Theater, 10:30 PM EST), and I was blown away, to say the least.

I would LOVE for this movie to get a Best Picture nom at the Oscars, but I know the smart kids () that dominate the Academy won't give this movie the time of day, same as they did with first movie.

 

[UssGlenn]

-All females super heroes saving Spiderman. I get it, we live in 2019 but don't hit me over the head with it.

It was the only thing that took me out of the movie. Plus Captain Marvel didn't actually need help getting through the army, she can fly.

I saw Cobie Smulders in the end credits, was she in the movie? The Funeral scene would be the obvious place, didn't notice her there.

 

[Booji]

I saw Cobie Smulders in the end credits, was she in the movie? The Funeral scene would be the obvious place, didn't notice her there.

Yeah, she was shown near Fury during the funeral.

 

[EJD1984]

I saw the movie last night at the Baltimore Science Center IMAX. the only word I can use to describe it is - WOW!

I wish I could forget the last hour, and experience it again. It was so GREAT the uniform audience reactions.

My only little nit-pick - I was hoping there would be a glimmer/hint that Natasha and Tony could return. In the comics, Stark did fake his own death, and had himself put into suspended animation to heal. (yes geeking out)

I know that reality/life is finite - But this is based off of comic books, and RDJ may want to come back one day.

 

[ISS-Magnum]

Someone on Comic Book Resources brought up a pivotal hero no one has talked about. The rat that hit the button on Ant-Man's quantum machinery. Things would have remained screwed without that unspoken hero.

Someone on this board too:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/ave...discussion-thread.299360/page-3#post-12918031

Great minds...

 

[Ethros]

I for one thought Captain Marvel's new haircut looked awesome.

Do you think they actually got all those actors together for the Lake scene? Or if some were maybe green screened in? Given how that was the only appearance of Samuel L Jackson, Cobie Smulders, William Hurt and Michelle Pfeifer in the movie and they didn't have any lines.

Interesting as well that Natalie Portman was listed in the credits, I was expecting it to just be a body double or CGI during the Asgard scenes. She didn't exactly do a lot.


Also loved the sign off signatures at the end, did everyone else think of Star Trek VI?

 

[Reverend]

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It was right after the war, Cap may have gone to some point after that because they’re together by the 50s. Old Peggy seems to have kids in photos, but none of a husband.

If that's the case then I am suddenly very glad (yet still a little creeped out as ever) that Sharon was a great-niece and not a granddaughter.

I sure don't know. Looking at the old Peggy scene, her husband isn't in any of the photos, I don't think. In fact nothing contradicts her husband being Cap since she avoids naming him. Adds something to those 'None of us can go back' and that 'I lived a life and my only regret is you didn't get to live yours' lines. It's like Time After Time and that 'Come back to me' moment.

The archived interview with Peggy at the Smithsonian would seem to contradict that notion. Specifically the line about her future husband being among the soldiers Steve saved.

I suppose she could be lying (then why even mention it), or if you really want to get all Kenobi about it, that could technically be about Steve...But it still throws up all kinds of issues. How/why did Peggy keep him a secret for *seventy years*? Even from Howard, one presumes. Wouldn't Steve have mentioned something along the lines of "oh BTW, you might want to put Zola back in his cell because he's rebuilding Hydra within SHIELD." I'm not sure Steve Rogers could just sit by and watch have a century full of tragedies unfold. I mean that's been at the core of his character from the start and the reason he both ended up at odds with Tony in CACW and why he went with this whole "Time Heist" idea in the first place.
I think this is just something that we should just go with and not think about jus because it's poetic, because even for a time travel story it makes no damn logical sense.

 

[ITDUDE]

So, universe was literally saved by the
sewer rat.
I can live with that.

All hail the rat! Need to find some pics of it and change my avatar

More random thoughts as they occur to me: -

• So what were the rules of time travel again? Is there a Loki and another Tesseract still in play? Is causality just out the window now? I mean we saw him escape AND we saw him in prison on Asgard.
• What about what the Ancient One said about the consequences of removing the stones from the universe? Does that also apply once Thanos destroyed them, or is that OK because their atoms are just dispersed and thus, still within the universe?

Also, in retrospect, it may have been almost merciful to cancel all the Netflix shows given how much this would disrupt them.

Some write-up on time travel rules in Endgame. https://www.thewrap.com/the-time-travel-rules-of-avengers-endgame/
It's definitely not consistent as used in the movie. But ditto about MCU TV. Dead and dead.

I imagine so. Maybe that’s how they save Black Widow as well.

It's going to be a prequel now. I imagine Loki Disney+ TV show and Black Widow from 2012 being in the same timeline.

So when Cap return the stones he must of meet the Red Skull..wonder how that went?

They just hand-waved that away. Is it even possible to return the soul stone?!

Gamora wouldn't have been in the Soul Gem when Natasha died, Thanos hadn't gotten there, yet. I expect Gamora, past her or present, will be largely hand waived away. On the other hand, GotG3 might go for Nebula trying to save past Gamora from herself. Whatever happens, just go with the flow since she is coming back more than likely.

Guardians of the Galaxy vol 3: Search for Gamora featuring Thor, has a nice ring to it. They definitely set up that movie in Endgame.

Then how did Cap end up an old man in the present?

Yeah. The serum is supposed to slowdown his aging.
I thought what he did at the end was rather dickish of him. Wasn’t he dating Sharon? He also just abandoned everyone so he could live with her.

Yeah, but if anyone earned it, it was him.

Technically he was gone for all of 30 seconds and the creation of an alternate reality where Cap lives a quiet life didn't have any affect on the 'prime' reality. Until he shows up for dramatic effect to give Sam the shield and NOTHING to Bucky. It's like only giving one of your kids a christmas present

I was expecting Bucky to be the next Captain America. But I guess in the comics they also had Falcon as Captain America at some point to, so it fits. And Bucky can still get his turn in a couple more movies

So the Old Steve could possibly even be 117 if he went back to 1945. Having waited 78 years for that moment in 2023. The super soldier serum giving him a longer lifespan like the guard in the Green Mile.

Exactly, he didn't look a day over 85. He has few decades left in him

 

[Tosk]

Do you think they actually got all those actors together for the Lake scene? Or if some were maybe green screened in?

Definitely looked like at least some of the groupings were done apart from each other. The scheduling would be horrendous just for one shot, easier to break it up.

Interesting as well that Natalie Portman was listed in the credits, I was expecting it to just be a body double or CGI during the Asgard scenes. She didn't exactly do a lot.

I'd be willing to bet her credit was simply for the use of previously shot (but cut) material. (The shot of her waking up.) Most of the shots of her were "conveniently" far away or while her back was turned.

 

[Awesome Possum]

And no one noticed him at the funeral in Captain America: Civil war? Young Cap was kissing Old Cap's niece in law. and she let him? If Young Cap was still holding a romantic candle for Peggy why did he lip kiss Sharon.

He would know his younger was there. He could’ve hid or otherwise kept out of sight. Sharon seems to be the last of her family, so she either knew or just thought her uncle resembled Cap since she would only know him as an old man.

So all along there were two Steve Rodgers, the married one and the Avenger's one?

Time travel , too confusing!

Yes, Hulk mentioned that their past would not change affecting their present. Cap has always been there.

 

[Commander Richard]

- Didn't see Cobie Smulders. Only saw Nick Fury standing there at the end.

- RDJ could have played Tony Stark for the rest of the MCU, even in a minor role. Or he could have taken a break and returned 20 years from now. How many actors are reprising their roles after a couple of decades?

- I wonder how the Netflix shows would have dealt with the time jump. Ignore it sort of? Have life go on and sort of allude to it even without their own time jump?

- How will the other shows like Cloak & Dagger and Runaways deal with the time jump? How will Agents of SHIELD?

- Future of the MCU... Captain Marvel, The Fantastic Four and X-Men, along with Spider-Man? I'd think that people could be all X-Men-ed out but the folks in charge of the MCU have been pretty good at keeping things fresh.

 

[Commander Richard]

Interesting as well that Natalie Portman was listed in the credits, I was expecting it to just be a body double or CGI during the Asgard scenes. She didn't exactly do a lot.

I was surprised to see her too and thought that they might have used stock footage. She didn't seem to like these movies and was done with them.

 

[ITDUDE]

- Didn't see Cobie Smulders. Only saw Nick Fury standing there at the end.

I think she was on the stairs right before we saw Nick Fury.

 

[Commander Richard]

^ If so, I didn't know that was her.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

We saw Thor take the bridge back to Asgard with Loki in Avengers 1.

Yes.

There's like a ten minute window for them to catch him if he had gone missing in the original movie.

No. Thor hung out for Shawarma and everyone was exhausted and a mess. The exit scene showed them clean and rested. It was the next day at least.

But Captain America changed his past! Did the Winter soldier events still happen?

No, he didn't and yes, it did.

So all along there were two Steve Rodgers, the married one and the Avenger's one?

Time travel , too confusing!

Yes.

If that's the case then I am suddenly very glad (yet still a little creeped out as ever) that Sharon was a great-niece and not a granddaughter.

Agreed, but I still think it's edging on Luke and Leia levels of unintended consequences.

The archived interview with Peggy at the Smithsonian would seem to contradict that notion. Specifically the line about her future husband being among the soldiers Steve saved.

I suppose she could be lying (then why even mention it), or if you really want to get all Kenobi about it, that could technically be about Steve...But it still throws up all kinds of issues. How/why did Peggy keep him a secret for *seventy years*? Even from Howard, one presumes. Wouldn't Steve have mentioned something along the lines of "oh BTW, you might want to put Zola back in his cell because he's rebuilding Hydra within SHIELD." I'm not sure Steve Rogers could just sit by and watch have a century full of tragedies unfold. I mean that's been at the core of his character from the start and the reason he both ended up at odds with Tony in CACW and why he went with this whole "Time Heist" idea in the first place.

I assume they didn't, but there was always something in the way of them exposing Zola/destroying Hydra definitively because that's how history turned out.

 

[Bast]

So, is it right for me to assume that the Agent Carter series is now an alternate timeline? Or did Steve catch up to her in the fifties and get her to dump Daniel?

 

[ITDUDE]

So, is it right for me to assume that the Agent Carter series is now an alternate timeline? Or did Steve catch up to her in the fifties and get her to dump Daniel?

Umm, yes?

For what it's worth, Captain America growing old breaks Endgame's own time travel rules. If he stayed back in the past to be with Peggy, it would create a fork from events of "prime" timeline where she never got him back. It was previously made clear in the movie all the changes during the time-heist did not affect "prime" timeline as those spawned alternate timelines. Yet if Captain America staying back in the past definitely created a new timeline (butterfly effect and all), he could then never re-unite with the "prime" timeline Bucky, Hulk and Falcon (since their past would not have been changed).
So if anything, the moment he went back in time we stopped seeing the "prime" timeline and started seeing an "alternate" timeline. All events taking place in this "alternate" timeline are slightly different than prime because they contain Captain America and Agent Carter hooking up in the past, while before they didn't. Makes sense? No well, it's not going to

 

[UssGlenn]

he could then never re-unite with the "prime" timeline Bucky, Hulk and Falcon

Sure he could, he just needs to save his last quantum realm trip for after Peggy dies and hop back over to the original timeline. You don't have to use the pad, Tony and Cap didn't when they went to 1970.

 

[ITDUDE]

Sure he could, he just needs to save his last quantum realm trip for after Peggy dies and hop back over to the original timeline. You don't have to use the pad, Tony and Cap didn't when they went to 1970.

Hmm, I suppose he could. He lived his life in alternate timeline but after Peggy died, he came back to the main timeline. I think that works!

I suppose they could have show that in the movie, the way they presented it it's as if he never used the time machine at all anymore. But it doesn't invalidate your theory! Nicely done.

 

[Neroon]

If it's the kid they hang on for a bit that you didn't recognize, it's the little kid from Iron Man 3

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks!!!