About Mirror Georgiou in ”Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2“

[ELURIA]

I wasn‘t the biggest fan of the finale this season, but apart from everything that didn‘t work for me in terms of plot there was one moment that did particularly irk me, and I‘m curious what others think.

I‘m talking about the scene where Mirror Georgiou finally prevails over Control‘ed Leland and by all appearances kills him in what‘s portrayed as a pretty painful death. Georgiou is visibly joyful to observe his demise and grins gleefully.

Then I read this in an interview with series producer Michelle Paradise ...



Which has me wondering whether we as an audience are supposed to cheer Georgiou on in her callousness. I get being a fan of a morally ambiguous character, I really do. Dukat, for example, was a rather interesting character on DS9 and I loved to watch Alaimo portray his demise. But I never felt the writers wanted me to applaud his vicious, violent deeds.

Sure, Control was a threat that needed to be stopped, there didn‘t seem to be time or an opportunity for mercy. And Georgiou is a human being from a universe where all she learned was to kill or be killed. It‘s all she knows.

But do the writers expect me to delight in watching a character enjoying the painful death of another being?

I honestly do not understand. To me it's like STD's writers keep showing who they are but certain people keep on disbelieving them. None of the villain characters can hold a candle to those on DS9

 

[fireproof78]

I honestly do not understand. To me it's like STD's writers keep showing who they are but certain people keep on disbelieving them. None of the villain characters can hold a candle to those on DS9

I don't want them to.

If the producers are that keen on keeping Michelle Yeoh as part of the franchise the best thing they could at this point would be to somehow bring back prime Georgiou to command Discovery season 3. There is a vacancy now there after all. I honestly don't think audiences are going to take to having a main character as mean as the mirror one is. No matter how much they keep on trying to soften her edges.

There are so many shows within recent years that involve antiheroes and mean people as the protagonist. Audiences are a lot more accepting than they are ever given credit for.

 

[ELURIA]

I don't want them to.

Why's that? Personally, I'd love STD's characters to have that skilled writing behind them

 

[Yistaan]

I don't want them to.

There are so many shows within recent years that involve antiheroes and mean people as the protagonist. Audiences are a lot more accepting than they are ever given credit for.

While that may be true, the fact is that we already have way too many cruel people in power running around in our world, from my perspective living in America. And maybe shows like 'House of Cards' or whatever has contributed to that.

Star Trek is supposed to be different. Although he hasn't outright said it, I feel one of the reasons Patrick Stewart is coming back to Picard is because he recognizes the importance of an iconic, morally upright character and wants to try to use his work as an actor to influence a world that's arguably falling off track.

 

[Kemaiku]

The population of the Federation is in the 900 billion range, add the whole galaxy and that's into quadrillions.

Imagine thousands of times the population of the Earth right now all murdered by one entity "because".

It's not even a living thing, I'd gladly make it scream for that.

 

[fireproof78]

Why's that? Personally, I'd love STD's characters to have that skilled writing behind them

Because I have DS9 already. DSC, for good or ill, is something different, and I want to explore that.

Star Trek is supposed to be different. Although he hasn't outright said it, I feel one of the reasons Patrick Stewart is coming back to Picard is because he recognizes the importance of an iconic, morally upright character and wants to try to use his art to influence a world that's arguably falling off track.

Then do that show. There's room for both is my only argument.

 

[Delta Vega]

I don't see the issue with Georgiou indulging in Leland/Control's demise
She is Terran ffs, that is her raison d'etre
It was a short, sharp reminder that this wasn't Captain Georgiou of the Shenzou
In the latter shows in the season there had been a mellowing of the Emperor, almost being part of the buddy group, bonding awkwardly with Burnham like the deceased Georgiou, like a substitute.
Reduced to improper outbursts and sniping at the likes of Po and Tilly.
Georgiou is duplicitous, not to be trusted, edgy, dangerous, and that was the writer's way of telling us not to forget that.
I also think she's hot, I may have mentioned that

 

[F. King Daniel]

She's a genocial, cannibalistic psychopath. She's only on "our side" because she's got a Momcrush on a duplicate of her daughter.

My reaction to the scene was laughter. She's crazy.

 

[Attentiveluke]

She's a genocial, cannibalistic psychopath.

Eating another race doesn’t make you a cannibal, eating another human does. Although the kurtzpians are such a special race, going from Stone Age to spacefaring in a matter of weeks. Handy they were piloting fighters and not just weaponless shuttles. But these episodes routinely get 9 or 10 ratings on here so I must be missing something...

 

[F. King Daniel]

Eating another race doesn’t make you a cannibal, eating another human does.

It's exactly as bad as cannibalism on every moral level.

 

[Starflight]

Eating another race doesn’t make you a cannibal, eating another human does.

Got to be defined as "another sentient" under Federation law, surely.

As for the Kelpians (laughed at Kurtzpian, props for that), I guess we're to assume that either the Ba'ul taught them how to pilot fighters, or the Federation diplomats trying to smooth out the Ba'ul-Kurtzpian nightmare scenario did.

 

[Michael]

It wasn't human, Pike even said as much to the Enterprise crew. Whatever was left of the person that was Leland was gone by the time the cyborg attacked Discovery. Maybe Control could feel pain thanks to stupidly merging itself to his pain receptors, and yelled in some mimickery of anguish, but I doubt it could "feel" as that was the whole point, it didn't get to do a Pinocchio until it got the Sphere data.

What does it matter if it wasn't human? Isn't one of the recurring themes in Star Trek that every being is deserving of empathy and compassion? I don't care if it is human, alien, android, robotic, holographic or just a computer program – I wouldn't want to see it suffer. And if I had to I certainly wouldn't enjoy it laughingly. And even if the pain is just simulated mimicry on Leland's end, the reactions and emotions by Georgiou are genuine, and I think it tells a lot about her that she enjoys his suffering.

I don't think I would have a problem if I didn't get the feeling (again, from the Paradise quote) that the writers want me to see Georgiou as the hero here. They want me to approve of her behavior, because she's on the “good side”, but to me this just feels wrong.

The population of the Federation is in the 900 billion range, add the whole galaxy and that's into quadrillions.

Imagine thousands of times the population of the Earth right now all murdered by one entity "because".

It's not even a living thing, I'd gladly make it scream for that.

I can understand wanting to see it go down, because it saves the universe. But “gladly making it scream”? Why? And at a point where it hasn't even committed the countless murders you are describing here.

To charitably interpret that quote, maybe Paradise means that she's delighted by the performance itself, not the actions the character is taking. Like, I LOVE rewatching Female Shapeshifter scenes on DS9, because I think Salome Jens made brilliant (and often completely unexpected) performance choices, and I am delighted by the way she brings that character to life, even though I also find her unsettling and evil.

That being said, you're not wrong that the show has a confused attitude toward Georgiou's morality. (A confused plot element on Discovery?!? Now I've heard everything!) I might have delighted at her scenes, but DS9 was always quite clear that the Female Shapeshifter was not a delightful individual, and Disco has not been similarly clear on MU Georgiou.

In retrospect, it really would have helped if she hadn't been the actual Emperor of the evil universe. She'd be more embraceable now as a hero if she hadn't been Actual Hitler just one year ago.

Many good points, and yeah, she probably just meant Yeoh's performance. (Although I fail to see what was so special about that.) And I agree with the comparison to the Female Shapeshifter on Deep Space Nine. Loved Salome Jens' performance and her evilness, but it was always clear that we weren't supposed to root for her evil cause.

I don't see the issue with Georgiou indulging in Leland/Control's demise
She is Terran ffs, that is her raison d'etre
It was a short, sharp reminder that this wasn't Captain Georgiou of the Shenzou
In the latter shows in the season there had been a mellowing of the Emperor, almost being part of the buddy group, bonding awkwardly with Burnham like the deceased Georgiou, like a substitute.
Reduced to improper outbursts and sniping at the likes of Po and Tilly.
Georgiou is duplicitous, not to be trusted, edgy, dangerous, and that was the writer's way of telling us not to forget that.
I also think she's hot, I may have mentioned that

I think you must have read me wrong. I'm certainly not saying it's out of character for Georgiou to indulge in Control's pain. My problem is the feeling that the writers want me to accept Georgiou as a “good” character. Having her enjoy other's pain makes that hard for me. She could be a cool villain, but someone to root for? No.

 

[seigezunt]

Shh you are not supposed to complain when a woman kills a man on TV in 2019. You're supposed to applaud.

That didn't take long. Sigh.

She's a genocial, cannibalistic psychopath. She's only on "our side" because she's got a Momcrush on a duplicate of her daughter.

My reaction to the scene was laughter. She's crazy.

Same. I think it's possible to find a character bonkers and badass at the same time, and be fine with the destruction of a genocidal villain.

 

[Kemaiku]

What does it matter if it wasn't human?.

The fact that they knew for certain this singular entity was going to murder an astronomical amount of sapient beings, entire civilisations, a whole galaxy at the very least for no reason is what matters.

 

[Michael]

Weird, a lot of people seem to think this is about not wanting to see Control destroyed. But that's not what this is about. I'm all for that, if it is necessary. This is about not wanting to see it suffer and feeling joy because of its pain. Frankly, I'm kind of surprised that so many here so strongly advocate for a character indulging in inflicting pain.

There is a difference, right? Maybe I'm communicating this wrong.

 

[Starflight]

Out of interest, did they ever describe exactly how Control ended up like it did? If some idiot at Section 31 decided to push it towards genocide-mode and then only lost control of it at the last second, that raises some interesting questions about how responsible Control is for what it does and plans to do, if we consider it to be alive and sentient.

Never mind that we don't really know anything at all about it's motivation for going all genocidey.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Out of interest, did they ever describe exactly how Control ended up like it did? If some idiot at Section 31 decided to push it towards genocide-mode and then only lost control of it at the last second, that raises some interesting questions about how responsible Control is for what it does and plans to do, if we consider it to be alive and sentient.

Never mind that we don't really know anything at all about it's motivation for going all genocidey.

Nope, they never explained why an AI designed to protect humans decided the best was to do so was eradicate all life in the galaxy.

 

[F. King Daniel]

As for the Kelpians (laughed at Kurtzpian, props for that), I guess we're to assume that either the Ba'ul taught them how to pilot fighters, or the Federation diplomats trying to smooth out the Ba'ul-Kurtzpian nightmare scenario did.

I thought the inevitable aftermath of the earlier episode was the Kelpians turn the tables on the Ba'ul (I kind of envisioned mass slaughter) and take their technology. They definitely took their technology.

Perhaps the 33rd century is ruled by the Kelpians, who eat all the other races.

 

[Kemaiku]

Out of interest, did they ever describe exactly how Control ended up like it did? If some idiot at Section 31 decided to push it towards genocide-mode and then only lost control of it at the last second, that raises some interesting questions about how responsible Control is for what it does and plans to do, if we consider it to be alive and sentient.

Never mind that we don't really know anything at all about it's motivation for going all genocidey.

Control was designed as a tactical assessment AI, monitoring the general activity of all life in and around the Federation to identify threats and send the NCIA-93 ships to discreetly deal with it.

At some point the amount of processing power they gave it to "solve" the Klingon war made it able to think independently, and it decided that killing the Admirals on the station running it was a good idea.

It looks like it went on to decide all organic life was a threat or problem and systematically killing everyone was the only way to stop the choas. But no, we never learn exactly why.

 

[Starflight]

I thought the inevitable aftermath of the earlier episode was the Kelpians turn the tables on the Ba'ul (I kind of envisioned mass slaughter) and take their technology. They definitely took their technology.

Perhaps the 33rd century is ruled by the Kelpians, who eat all the other races.

I took it to mean that the Ba'ul and Kelpians had begun peacefully cooperating - the symbolism of a Ba'ul ship piloted by a Kelpian being a sort of herald of that - but I don't know. It's definitely written extremely vaguely in the actual episode.