Spoilers The Flash - Season 5

[Romulan_spy]

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I'm wondering if this was all Thawne's plan from the get-go, to plant mistrust between Barry, Nora and Iris to ruin Barry's family and mess up his future? Maybe the mistrust will lead to a different timeline that saves Thawne from being executed or maybe Thawne is just messing with the Allen family one last time before his execution? It would certainly fit Thawne M.O since he hates Barry so much, to try to ruin his family one last time.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Yeah, that was a weird line.

It feels like the writers are suddenly giving Barry a brand new superpower because it will come in handy later in the season.

 

[Christopher]

I suppose one could rationalize it -- maybe it's because Barry knows Nora so well now, knows the feel of her Speed Force signature. He missed her previous time travels, but he wasn't trying to look out for them. Maybe it's something he can notice if he specifically pays attention, but not otherwise.

But then, that would require him to be alert to it 24/7, which seems unlikely. It's still quite a stretch.

Maybe he was just bluffing?

 

[Kirk Prime]

I'm wondering if this was all Thawne's plan from the get-go, to plant mistrust between Barry, Nora and Iris to ruin Barry's family and mess up his future? Maybe the mistrust will lead to a different timeline that saves Thawne from being executed or maybe Thawne is just messing with the Allen family one last time before his execution? It would certainly fit Thawne M.O since he hates Barry so much, to try to ruin his family one last time.

I like that better than a redeemed Thawne. Refresh my memory--Thawne has the ability to have his memories unaffected by changes in the timeline--did they explain how that happened? I forget.

I believe earlier in the season, Barry met Thawne with Nora, and Thawne thought Nora was Dawn, so at that point in Thawne's life, he remembered a different timeline. What if Thawne from 2049's motives is either to erase Dawn or erase Nora, which leads to Dawn?

 

[Finn]

Wasn't it agreed earlier in this thread that Dawn and Nora is the same person, just named differently due to some kind of timeline change(s)?

 

[Professor Zoom]

It makes sense that Barry doesn’t trust the situation and Nora. But pulling big dick moves, ugh. But then if we didn’t have Dick Barry when it was convenient to the plot, they wouldn’t have enough story.

This week’s was a nice diversion actually. It was nice shaking up things a bit. But, maybe Nora shoulda done the opening narration, that would’ve made it feel more complete.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

… But then, that would require him to be alert to it 24/7, which seems unlikely. It's still quite a stretch.

Kind of a moot point considering Barry really can't hold a grudge against anyone who hasn't killed a family member.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I like that better than a redeemed Thawne. Refresh my memory--Thawne has the ability to have his memories unaffected by changes in the timeline--did they explain how that happened? I forget.

I believe earlier in the season, Barry met Thawne with Nora, and Thawne thought Nora was Dawn, so at that point in Thawne's life, he remembered a different timeline. What if Thawne from 2049's motives is either to erase Dawn or erase Nora, which leads to Dawn?

Yeah, that code Nora wrote in the diary (the one we originally saw Barry writing when he was rescued from the speed-force) allows the knowledge from one timeline to the next. I'm just surprised at how passive the speed-force is in allowing all these alterations.

I think this entire series is predicated on an alternate timeline. Prior to the first episode we know there was a Flash who had both parents alive and who went on to meet and fight The Reverse Flash. This series is the byproduct of Thawne traveling back in time changing events only to discover he needs The Flash to get back to his own time.

 

[Scout101]

Not a ton in this one making sense anymore, but guess we'll see where it goes. Struggling to understand just about ANYONE'S motivation, and why they would logically want to do that thing. Plus they're not even trying to explain Thawne anymore, just like him as the villain. Lazy paradoxes, and then Legends one-upped that by having the Spear of Destiny that was supposed to remove him from existence entirely (going above and beyond time travel nonsense). And even after all that, still here. haven't tried to diagram it or anything, but it's become so convoluted that it doesn't track anymore.

That and lazy writing in general. Barry is always trusting and believing in people, unless the plot needs him to stall, in which case he's an unreasonable dick. Starting to feel like a show that would benefit from a short season run (10-13 episodes), as there's a ton of padding, just feels like stalling in between the 4-5 episodes that are during sweeps or premiere/finales. Feels sloppy and like they started a season without having a plan on how to get between where they start and where they are going to finish, so they just kinda toss stuff in there. And then forget about the plot entirely for a while and do random stuff. Or let the bad guy get away because it's not an important episode. People seem to get away from the Flash a lot, thought being faster that everyone was kinda his thing, how do people keep running away at normal speed?

 

[Christopher]

Plus they're not even trying to explain Thawne anymore, just like him as the villain. Lazy paradoxes, and then Legends one-upped that by having the Spear of Destiny that was supposed to remove him from existence entirely (going above and beyond time travel nonsense). And even after all that, still here. haven't tried to diagram it or anything, but it's become so convoluted that it doesn't track anymore.

Superhero comics: inexplicably bringing villains back from certain death since 1940.

 

[thribs]

Wasn't it agreed earlier in this thread that Dawn and Nora is the same person, just named differently due to some kind of timeline change(s)?

But Dawn is one half of the Tornado Twins.

 

[tomalak301]

Yeah, but Barry's perspective is, why continue consulting him at all, instead of trusting in the team? She went to him in the first place to get insight into how an evil speedster thought and how to beat one. Cicada wasn't a speedster. Moreover, Cicada was her personal mission, her wish to work with her father to help him solve the one case he never could. So why continue to keep secrets from her father and work with his worst enemy? I still think Barry overreacted, but I can see his perspective, on reflection. It seems there's still more to the story of why Nora and Thawne are working together.

I wonder if her mentality was Thawne was the only person she could trust. Everyone else who she has put trust in has betrayed her, and right now Thawne really hasn't. I get what you are saying though, and I too think what Barry did was really harsh. I'm looking forward to seeing where the season takes this because this is a whole lot more interesting than what came before in 2019. Like I said, this episode should have came a lot earlier than with 4 episodes left before the season ends.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Wasn't it agreed earlier in this thread that Dawn and Nora is the same person, just named differently due to some kind of timeline change(s)?

Nope. Just a potential theory that someone had. I think the timeline changes affected when Barry and Iris conceived their child. The timeline change got Barry's accident to happen earlier, which may have sped up his romance with Iris, and caused them to become parents at a different point.

Yeah, that code Nora wrote in the diary (the one we originally saw Barry writing when he was rescued from the speed-force) allows the knowledge from one timeline to the next. I'm just surprised at how passive the speed-force is in allowing all these alterations.

I think this entire series is predicated on an alternate timeline. Prior to the first episode we know there was a Flash who had both parents alive and who went on to meet and fight The Reverse Flash. This series is the byproduct of Thawne traveling back in time changing events only to discover he needs The Flash to get back to his own time.

I think all of the above is true. It also lends the question--why didn't the Speed Force wraiths prevent Thawne from killing Barry's mom?

Another point--Nora is from a timeline where Barry disappears in 2024.

Based on what we know though, something is likely going to happen to push up the events of Crisis to late 2019. Maybe it's something Nora does, or something Barry does because Nora is in his life. The video Nora saw may not exist in the new timeline when it is created.

Logically, Nora is conceived at some point between 2019 - 2024. Given the picture of her as a baby with Barry and Iris, Nora will be conceived possibly by next season--around 2020--in this timeline.

The Crisis could be going on right about the time Barry and Iris would have been doing the deed to conceive Nora, which could prevent Nora from being conceived. That might prove a surprise when Iris has twins and Nora is nowhere to be found.

 

[Scout101]

Superhero comics: inexplicably bringing villains back from certain death since 1940.

Sure, but even death is different that 'completely erased from existence', and that's what the Spear advertised. Why introduce something like that if you have no intention of obeying it? Not like it existed and they had to use it, they wrote it into the show...

Guess I just like more internal consistency, even if it means consistently silly. I'm having trouble trying to get the Flash storyline to hang together anymore. It's kinda a mess.

 

[Christopher]

Why introduce something like that if you have no intention of obeying it?

Because that's how serial fiction generally works. On the one hand, each individual storyline needs a decisive ending. On the other hand, you need to keep telling new stories and bringing back popular characters. It's not just dying-and-reviving villains -- comics (and probably other serial formats like soap operas) are full of "permanent" changes that then get retconned back to the status quo after a couple of years. Once the story has already been told, you need to shift your priorities to what the next story needs, even if that means undoing a previous story's ending.

Although I still admire the storytelling discipline of the '40s Superman radio series about kryptonite. Its continuity with other things was often extremely loose and incoherent, but all its kryptonite over years of storytelling came from a single source, a meteorite that was discovered in one story and split into four pieces in a later story, with said four pieces driving the three immediately consecutive storylines and then one more a few years later, with no more kryptonite ever showing up thereafter. A nice alternative to other adaptations' various iterations of "That was the last remaining kryptonite on Earth/Oops, we just found a bunch more."

 

[Finn]

Did anyone bring up that cryptic message Barry Allen made, only seven years after Nora's time? Did Barry come back after 2049? Or was Barry somewhere else and encountered Rip Hunter...?

 

[thribs]

Their future story is way more interesting than Arrow’s one. I couldn’t care less about that one.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Maybe because as of now, the Arrow future story has no point. It doesn't relate much to the present and unless they reveal a connection, it is basically two shows in one. Flash's story is interconnected.

 

[Finn]

I had a thought in my head...imagine Felicity dropping by for coffee with Team Flash at Jitters and bringing up Archer in front of Nora, and she reacts as if it was really bad...

 

[Morpheus 02]

I suppose one could rationalize it -- maybe it's because Barry knows Nora so well now, knows the feel of her Speed Force signature. He missed her previous time travels, but he wasn't trying to look out for them. Maybe it's something he can notice if he specifically pays attention, but not otherwise.

But then, that would require him to be alert to it 24/7, which seems unlikely. It's still quite a stretch.

Maybe he was just bluffing?

Clearly you are not a parent.

Definitely a modern parental threat...and since she is new to this stuff and learned a lot of secrets not told in the Flash museum...hard for her to debate it