Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

[Yistaan]

I think it's pretty clear form the way they've been acting around each other that they haven't seen each other since they had there falling out.

In sci-fi even that isn't enough. It's pretty clear that Obi-Wan and Grievous had never fought before in Revenge of the Sith either (Grievous outright says, "I have been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku" as if this was new information to Kenobi), yet the canonical Clone Wars tv series shows they fought practically every other week during the war.

It's also pretty clear that Spock and Sarek haven't had anything to do with each other in 18 years as of Journey to Babel and that it was solely due to Spock's decision to join Starfleet. New info in Discovery shows that there are a ton of other reasons why Sarek and Spock are on edgy terms, not least of which Sarek trusted Section 31 with taking Spock in and they almost permanently damaged him.

 

[Enterprise1701]

I would rather not take the lousy lack of consistency in the General Grievous case as a shining exemplar. From my perspective, the logical conclusion is that Discovery season 2 threw Desperate Hours out the window.

 

[Yistaan]

I would rather not take the lousy lack of consistency in the General Grievous case as a shining exemplar. From my perspective, the logical conclusion is that Discovery season 2 threw Desperate Hours out the window.

Hey, Star Trek has a long and proud history of trying to be like Star Wars.

 

[Tuskin38]

The recent Saru one shot comic references the Saru focused novel 'Fear Itself'.

 

[Christopher]

In sci-fi even that isn't enough. It's pretty clear that Obi-Wan and Grievous had never fought before in Revenge of the Sith either (Grievous outright says, "I have been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku" as if this was new information to Kenobi), yet the canonical Clone Wars tv series shows they fought practically every other week during the war.

That isn't about sci-fi, it's just the nature of series storytelling regardless of genre. Sometimes the needs of your current story require retconning something from a previous story in order to make it work. All creativity is a process of revision and refinement of one's ideas, and in an ongoing series, sometimes that means revising something that's already been released.

It's also pretty clear that Spock and Sarek haven't had anything to do with each other in 18 years as of Journey to Babel and that it was solely due to Spock's decision to join Starfleet.

Hadn't "spoken as father and son." The line in "Journey to Babel" implicitly allows for some interaction, just not on familial terms.

 

[The Wormhole]

Indeed, which means the few minutes Spock and Sarek spent together in which Sarek spoke to Amanda and Michael while Spock rambled the Doctrines of Logic and the coordinates to Talos IV does not contradict Journey to Babel.

 

[Yistaan]

Indeed, which means the few minutes Spock and Sarek spent together in which Sarek spoke to Amanda and Michael while Spock rambled the Doctrines of Logic and the coordinates to Talos IV does not contradict Journey to Babel.

It's less that than the fact that Journey to Babel implies that Spock's admission to Starfleet is the reason they haven't been talking.

I honestly think your own father turning you over to Section 31 who then tried to mindwipe you is a much more major reason to not be talking than this Starfleet admission thing, which suddenly seems extremely minor by comparison.

Journey to Babel never outright said the Academy admission was the only reason they weren't talking, but then neither did Desperate Hours outright say Pike never met Georgiou at the Academy or Discovery outright say Burnham never spoke with Spock since childhood.

What I'm saying is if you can fit Journey to Babel and Discovery together, then you can just as easily fit the Desperate Hours novel too.

 

[David cgc]

I think it's pretty clear form the way they've been acting around each other that they haven't seen each other since they had there falling out.

Well, there you go right there, because the fight we saw happened, at most, a year or two after Michael was adopted, so they still would've been living under the same roof for years after, until Michael went to the Vulcan Science Academy (assuming she lived on-campus, longer if she didn't).

 

[The Wormhole]

then you can just as easily fit the Desperate Hours novel too.

I think it's clear no one's bothering to do that at this point.

 

[Yistaan]

I think it's clear no one's bothering to do that at this point.

I was talking about fans, not producers. The producers aren't going out of their way to contradict it either, which they could have easily done by saying "Meet my Number One, Commander Janet Smith", or something.

 

[JD]

Well, there you go right there, because the fight we saw happened, at most, a year or two after Michael was adopted, so they still would've been living under the same roof for years after, until Michael went to the Vulcan Science Academy (assuming she lived on-campus, longer if she didn't).

OK, maybe it wasn't that long, but I think it's still been a lot longer than the 2 years between Season 2 of Discovery and Desperate Hours.
From what people have said it also sounds like the book did have them addressing their issues with each other, which very clearly hasn't happened in the last couple of episodes of Discovery.

 

[Yistaan]

OK, maybe it wasn't that long, but I think it's still been a lot longer than the 2 years between Season 2 of Discovery and Desperate Hours.
From what people have said it also sounds like the book did have them addressing their issues with each other, which very clearly hasn't happened in the last couple of episodes of Discovery.

I can say from real life experience that you can interact with someone (especially in a professional setting) tons of times and still not settle your issues with them until later (if ever).

Picard seemingly dealt with his issues with the Borg in later TNG episodes, only for it to be revealed he hadn't really in First Contact.

 

[The Wormhole]

I can say from real life experience that you can interact with someone (especially in a professional setting) tons of times and still not settle your issues with them until later (if ever).

Except in Desperate Hours Michael and Spock did resolve their issues through a mind meld. Also Desperate Hours indicates the two of them had few interactions growing up, while Disco shows they were in fact very close until Michael ran away and called Spock things like weird half-breed.

 

[WebLurker]

Well, in any multimedia franchise, the core form of the medium will take priority over the ancillary stuff, even if the latter has some degree of canoncity. In Star Wars, tie-ins are full canon and stuff has occasionally stepped on the toes of little bits here and there.

In the case of the DSC tie-ins, which were kinda-sorta canon (I was following the comments as they came out; for every "not canon" statement, there was one saying "yeah, they count and fill in the gaps"), we did know that they could be overwritten, both by the nature of the medium and by word of god (we were basically promised, at best, "we can overwrite them but are trying not to"). So, if Desperate Hours (or anything else) was contradicted, it's a revolting development, to be sure, but it is what it is and I guess it's up to the fans to decide whether the whole work should be stricken from whatever relevance it had to show on the whole or if there are ways to reconcile it if one wants to consider it as a part of the adventures.

 

[Christopher]

In the case of the DSC tie-ins, which were kinda-sorta canon (I was following the comments as they came out; for every "not canon" statement, there was one saying "yeah, they count and fill in the gaps"), we did know that they could be overwritten, both by the nature of the medium and by word of god (we were basically promised, at best, "we can overwrite them but are trying not to"). So, if Desperate Hours (or anything else) was contradicted, it's a revolting development, to be sure, but it is what it is and I guess it's up to the fans to decide whether the whole work should be stricken from whatever relevance it had to show on the whole or if there are ways to reconcile it if one wants to consider it as a part of the adventures.

I'm still surprised that anyone ever expected the DSC books to be canonical. That's usually the exception rather than the rule, and it's never been the rule for Trek. Even tie-ins that do try to be canonical to an ongoing series usually end up getting contradicted by the series eventually, e.g. Voyager: Mosaic and Pathways, the Dell Babylon 5 novels, or the Star Wars EU. A work in progress is bound to evolve, and anything that's ancillary to it is likely to be left behind when it changes direction.

 

[Damian]

I hate to dive into another debate here but I think what maybe gets some people riled up is "Desperate Hours" is a fairly recent novel, not some long ago written novel that some have forgotten.

And it comes after the showrunners at least indicated they wanted to keep Discovery as consistent as possible.

Now I have yet to see season 2 (waiting for the Blu-Ray) and I've done pretty good, like season 1, avoiding major spoilers (oh, I know Captain Pike is featured, and I've heard he is in at least temporary command of the Discovery, though I'm not sure why, oh, and Spock has a beard, not sure about that one but I digress, but nothing earth shattering).

But 2 things spring to mind. One is the novel was fairly recent, and we're still early in the show. I guess that means despite the showrunners indicating otherwise, we are in the default position for tie-ins in Star Trek. Now not all tie-ins are created equal among franchises. Some franchises take more into consideration than others. Star Trek canon basically pretends tie-ins don't exist, outside a few token mentions here and there. I for one was hoping Discovery would be a bit different. Not in every detail mind you. I agree with Christopher there, that'd be almost impossible. But I was kind of hoping that there's be an overall outline, or continuity, that kept the major overall plot intact.

And the 2nd thing that springs to mind, and I won't know this until I see season 2, but was it necessary? Could the season 2 episodes that apparently jettisons the novel have been written without contradicting the novel? Could they have written a good episode(s) that left "Desperate Hours" intact? Sometimes that's a question I think is failed to be asked. The showrunners are obviously aware of the novels, and I get the impression they are familiar even with the stories (or at least some are). Could they have written season 2 in such a way that retains the major elements to "Desperate Hours"? It'd be kind of a shame if "Desperate Hours" is 'lost' unnecessarily.

 

[WebLurker]

I'm still surprised that anyone ever expected the DSC books to be canonical.

Like I said, I was following the statements made about the book series in question.

That's usually the exception rather than the rule, and it's never been the rule for Trek.

Fair enough.

Even tie-ins that do try to be canonical to an ongoing series usually end up getting contradicted by the series eventually, e.g. Voyager: Mosaic and Pathways, the Dell Babylon 5 novels, or the Star Wars EU.

Thought that those VOY novels being canon was just an urban legend?

Not a huge B5 person, but I have gathered that some materials are considered canon, others exist in a gray area (although I am aware that an episode did reference the plot of a previously published comic book once), and I'm not even sure there was ever an official canon policy set up.

Star Wars has had it both ways. The EU was pretty much "canon in name only" IMHO, the way the prequels and Clone Wars show wrecked havoc on the other tie-ins -- although the tie-ins did constantly retcon themselves to keep up, resulting in a mostly consistent world before the Disney reboot, which has been generally more consistent and made the tie-ins more officially canonical. Heck, Solo only makes sense if you keep up with the tie-ins.

A work in progress is bound to evolve, and anything that's ancillary to it is likely to be left behind when it changes direction.

Guess that's why most franchises with canon tie-in tend to do them after the show/film series/whatever is finished?

I hate to dive into another debate here but I think what maybe gets some people riled up is "Desperate Hours" is a fairly recent novel, not some long ago written novel that some have forgotten.

And it comes after the showrunners at least indicated they wanted to keep Discovery as consistent as possible.

Now I have yet to see season 2 (waiting for the Blu-Ray) and I've done pretty good, like season 1, avoiding major spoilers (oh, I know Captain Pike is featured, and I've heard he is in at least temporary command of the Discovery, though I'm not sure why, oh, and Spock has a beard, not sure about that one but I digress, but nothing earth shattering).

But 2 things spring to mind. One is the novel was fairly recent, and we're still early in the show. I guess that means despite the showrunners indicating otherwise, we are in the default position for tie-ins in Star Trek. Now not all tie-ins are created equal among franchises. Some franchises take more into consideration than others. Star Trek canon basically pretends tie-ins don't exist, outside a few token mentions here and there. I for one was hoping Discovery would be a bit different. Not in every detail mind you. I agree with Christopher there, that'd be almost impossible. But I was kind of hoping that there's be an overall outline, or continuity, that kept the major overall plot intact.

And the 2nd thing that springs to mind, and I won't know this until I see season 2, but was it necessary? Could the season 2 episodes that apparently jettisons the novel have been written without contradicting the novel? Could they have written a good episode(s) that left "Desperate Hours" intact? Sometimes that's a question I think is failed to be asked. The showrunners are obviously aware of the novels, and I get the impression they are familiar even with the stories (or at least some are). Could they have written season 2 in such a way that retains the major elements to "Desperate Hours"? It'd be kind of a shame if "Desperate Hours" is 'lost' unnecessarily.

Agreed. Even if it wasn't fully canonical or never had any shred of canonicity, everything we were told about these books was that they were different from the other Star Trek tie-ins that were essentially licensed fan fiction (no offense; just a metaphor). They're within their rights to do what they will, but it does seems like something was lost here beyond just a specific story not meshing with a TV show.

 

[Damian]

Agreed. Even if it wasn't fully canonical or never had any shred of canonicity, everything we were told about these books was that they were different from the other Star Trek tie-ins

Yes, that was my impression as well. That it seemed with Discovery they were going to try to keep a basic coherent storyline among the show, books and comics. It seemed they didn't want things to drift apart significantly. In a way, I think that could benefit the show. If you were a hard core fan, you could read the novel and/or the comic books to give you all the details that they can't show you on TV due to time constraints. Sort of, you want to know more about Spock and Burnham, well, read "Desperate Hours" and know that was part of the back story. It's not necessary or required to watch and enjoy the show, but it's there if you really like it. Ditto for "The Way to the Stars" for a Tilly fan.

But now it seems we're back to the default, these are just tie ins, take them or leave them. Some people talk about how tie ins could be limiting to the show. But I actually think it could be mutually beneficial. Almost like a fictional reference. Instead of limiting the show writing, it could actually help the show writing IMO by providing those little details.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Mosaic and Pathways were written by Jeri Taylor, who helped create Voyager and was showrunner for seasons three and four, so the background established were treated as “definitive” at the time - when the person in charge is the one writing, the details they include are pretty clearly things they want to say are part of the story.

But after she stepped down as showrunner and passed the torch to other writers, they were free to disregard those details.

So while saying that the events were canon may be overstating it, it was reasonable to assume that this was how the people in charge at the time were viewing the background of these characters while writing.

 

[David cgc]

And the 2nd thing that springs to mind, and I won't know this until I see season 2, but was it necessary? Could the season 2 episodes that apparently jettisons the novel have been written without contradicting the novel? Could they have written a good episode(s) that left "Desperate Hours" intact? Sometimes that's a question I think is failed to be asked. The showrunners are obviously aware of the novels, and I get the impression they are familiar even with the stories (or at least some are). Could they have written season 2 in such a way that retains the major elements to "Desperate Hours"? It'd be kind of a shame if "Desperate Hours" is 'lost' unnecessarily.

Anything is possible. Whether a version of season two consistent with DH would be better than what we've got will have to wait until the season is done (until this most recent episode, for instance, I would've said the answer was that being restrained by DH would've been an unequivocal improvement, but we just had an episode where the major contradiction was actually handled well for a change, so now, who can say?), but it certainly could've been made that way.

To pick a somewhat sideways example, also brought to mind by the last episode, is there was a lot of stuff that, it seemed, could've been solved by just using the transporter to beam people up. When he was working on Battlestar Galactica, Ron Moore would talk about how it was freeing not to get into situations like that, where he didn't have to burn time on making up reasons why the transporters or the sensors weren't working (apparently, the solution nowadays is to just not use them, and hope the audience has seen enough Star Trek to know that the transporters aren't usable sometimes and to likewise know the characters are smart enough to use them when possible). Desperate Hours was a transporter for season two. They could write around it, or they could ignore it, but both those things will almost certainly always be true.