Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

[Christopher]

As noted in another thread, the Genesis Device could create a planet (with vegetation) out of nothing and bring dead people back to life, yet it was never mentioned again after the movies. True, the "protomatter" thing was an issue, but no worse than the issues with the spore drive. You'd think that they'd have worked the bugs out by the 24th century, but . . . .

Yup. Amazing technologies that never get developed are a staple of science fiction series -- see all the amazing technologies used by comic-book superheroes and villains that are never developed for civilian use.

That's why I like it in those rare cases where one of those technologies does get developed. Like in this season of Supergirl, where the main villain is an anti-alien bigot whose family steel plant was shut down due to competition from alien Nth metal as a superior construction material. Or the new Power Rangers Beast Morphers. In the original Japanese version Go-Busters, the villains were trying to take control of a powerful new energy source called Enetron, but in Beast Morphers, the energy source is the Power Rangers' own Morphin Grid, the source of their superpowers and amazing technologies, being harnessed as a clean energy source to save the world. Which is brilliant.

 

[GaryH]

Everything you guys are saying about the spore drive and other technologies when it was a more episodic series is right, but it just personally bothers me that they keep using it as an ongoing thread. I had no problem with it being a story line but the continued use in a prequel for two years makes me scratch my head every time it shows up

As I said, just my own personal reaction.

 

[Damian]

Everything you guys are saying about the spore drive and other technologies when it was a more episodic series is right, but it just personally bothers me that they keep using it as an ongoing thread. I had no problem with it being a story line but the continued use in a prequel for two years makes me scratch my head every time it shows up

Yeah, that's my feeling as well. One off episode/movie things, I get what they are saying. But at least in season 1, the spore drive was a substantial part, really the reason for the ship's existence. It's huge. It's a major plot point of the entire series. And it makes warp drive, a major plot point in all of Star Trek obsolete basically. It's big enough that I think a reasonable person would think they could eventually make it 'safe to use'. It'd be like someone here finding a FTL engine. It's groundbreaking.

Now, I do imagine at some point they'll kill the technology. I mean they'd have to really if they want this to be an actual prequel. My hope is that they write a story in such a way that makes it apparent that there's no amount of tweaking that will make it safe. That it's a dead end technology.

As noted in another thread, the Genesis Device could create a planet (with vegetation) out of nothing and bring dead people back to life, yet it was never mentioned again after the movies. True, the "protomatter" thing was an issue, but no worse than the issues with the spore drive.

I think the difference is the spore drive is used over and over again. With Genesis it was used once, the protomatter was revealed as a fatal flaw and it was never used again. You can infer that it was never used again because protomatter was required to make it work, making it unsafe. Even David in TSFS said "Genesis doesn't work..." If I remember correctly I think John Vornholt even went into that a bit with his Genesis Wave books. In a way, I think they rationalized why Genesis was a failed project pretty well. Protomatter, David saying it doesn't work...and then best of all the planetoid basically falls apart.

The spore drive has it's flaws as well, but it hurts their rationale when despite all that they continue to use it anyway. That's the part that bugs me. I'm just curious to see how they eventually kill it on the show. I don't think they can just leave it hanging. I think they'll need to kill it in such a way that it's pretty clear why it wasn't perfected by the 24th century. And the main reason being it is such a major part of the show. I think that makes this case a bit different. If they used it, found out about the issues and then not used it again as a result, that'd be a different story, but they didn't.

 

[Christopher]

Everything you guys are saying about the spore drive and other technologies when it was a more episodic series is right, but it just personally bothers me that they keep using it as an ongoing thread. I had no problem with it being a story line but the continued use in a prequel for two years makes me scratch my head every time it shows up

It's just a matter of degree to me. As I said, they've been building in reasons from the start why it would be a bad idea to keep using the technology. By now they've piled on five or six different reasons for abandoning it, which in my mind is enough to cancel out the continued use in the short term.

As for the "ongoing thread" aspect, that's just because DSC is a serialized show instead of an episodic one. It's still essentially telling just one big story per season, so it's kind of the equivalent of using the tech in just one episode.

Besides, how many years do you suppose were spent developing Genesis or the soliton wave drive before it was abandoned? Just because we only saw the end of the process onscreen doesn't mean it didn't go on longer.

I have a much bigger problem with the portrayal of Section 31 as a widely known entity. I can buy something being abandoned; it's harder to buy that people forgot it ever existed in the first place.

And it makes warp drive, a major plot point in all of Star Trek obsolete basically. It's big enough that I think a reasonable person would think they could eventually make it 'safe to use'.

It has the potential to destroy the entire multiverse. I don't think any sane civilization would be willing to risk that. There's probably some kind of test ban treaty like for polaric ion power. (The same probably explains why Genesis was abandoned.)

I think the difference is the spore drive is used over and over again. With Genesis it was used once, the protomatter was revealed as a fatal flaw and it was never used again. You can infer that it was never used again because protomatter was required to make it work, making it unsafe. Even David in TSFS said "Genesis doesn't work..." If I remember correctly I think John Vornholt even went into that a bit with his Genesis Wave books. In a way, I think they rationalized why Genesis was a failed project pretty well. Protomatter, David saying it doesn't work...and then best of all the planetoid basically falls apart.

I actually find that much harder to buy as an explanation. As you say, in real life, people don't abandon a technology completely just because its first version is dangerously flawed; they find a way to make it safer. (Besides, what the hell is "protomatter" anyway? It's just a nonsense word, a particularly dumb bit of empty technobabble. It's always annoyed me.)

Heck, even if the protomatter thing explains why Genesis wasn't developed as a terraforming tool, it doesn't begin to explain why nobody pursued it as a weapon. That's what Kruge wanted it for, after all -- a way to develop planet-killer weapons. If that's your priority, then Genesis still works. So that doesn't explain why it was abandoned. Hence my thinking that there must've been some kind of treaty ban on researching it.

 

[Damian]

what the hell is "protomatter" anyway?

I don't know, but whatever it is, don't touch it.

 

[Damian]

As you say, in real life, people don't abandon a technology completely just because its first version is dangerously flawed; they find a way to make it safer.

On that point I inferred that Genesis doesn't work without protomatter, and whatever it is, Saavik said that basically no legit scientist will go near the stuff. I figured it was so dangerous as soon as it was brought up, "Oh, you'll need protomatter" the other party just would go "Okaaay, next doomsday bomb, it's not worth it" . It helps for me that it was used once, it required some highly dangerous substance, and it ultimately failed. Spore drive just keeps slapping us in the face.

I agree with your reasoning, that it apparently has some dangerous properties, but then they should stop using it. They didn't keep using Genesis after all was revealed (well except the inhabitants of Lomar who resurrected it).

 

[Christopher]

On that point I inferred that Genesis doesn't work without protomatter, and whatever it is, Saavik said that basically no legit scientist will go near the stuff. I figured it was so dangerous as soon as it was brought up, "Oh, you'll need protomatter" the other party just would go "Okaaay, next doomsday bomb, it's not worth it" . It helps for me that it was used once, it required some highly dangerous substance, and it ultimately failed.

See, that I just can't buy. We're talking about a civilization that casually uses antimatter -- a substance that instantly destroys any matter it comes into contact with -- as an everyday power source. If they're okay doing that, it's ridiculous to suggest that there's any substance they find too dangerous to work with.

 

[Damian]

See, that I just can't buy. We're talking about a civilization that casually uses antimatter -- a substance that instantly destroys any matter it comes into contact with -- as an everyday power source. If they're okay doing that, it's ridiculous to suggest that there's any substance they find too dangerous to work with.

But they've found ways to safely handle anti-matter, with multiple safeguards. And as long as it's maintained safely it doesn't cause any problems like we know the spore drive does.

And why wouldn't that apply to the spore drive then? We know all those things but couldn't they find a safe way to use that someday by that reasoning? Obviously they don't find a safe way to use it since it's never seen again through the 24th century. I'm not even really arguing your point about the spore drive. I'd just like to see when it is eventually abandoned (which is shocking that it hasn't yet) that it's explicit that it can never be used again--and only because it's such a huge part to the Discovery narrative. If they used it, discovered the problems and stopped from that point on that would have been fine, end of story, the problem is they KEEP using it.

But I can envision a substance that's so dangerous that there's just no safe way to really handle it. And maybe there are other properties to protomatter that make it unusable. But I inferred it's danger from what we saw and heard from TSFS and the simple fact that unlike the spore drive, it was never used again, well at least in canon.

 

[Christopher]

But they've found ways to safely handle anti-matter, with multiple safeguards. And as long as it's maintained safely it doesn't cause any problems like we know the spore drive does.

I was talking about protomatter there, not spore drive. The point is, antimatter is the most dangerous thing imaginable. If you touch it, it instantly blows you up. How could protomatter possibly be harder to work with than that?

And why wouldn't that apply to the spore drive then? We know all those things but couldn't they find a safe way to use that someday by that reasoning?

It's a matter of scale, man. Antimatter blows up your ship or your building. Genesis destroys your planet. Spore drive potentially destroys the entirety of all existence everywhere and in every reality. I mean, surely the line would get drawn well below that scale of destruction!

 

[Damian]

I was talking about protomatter there, not spore drive.

I know. I was just taking your last line about there being any substance too dangerous to work with further. I mean when it comes to protomatter--I can see a substance that there's just no safe way to handle it. That no amount of safeguards is going to help. And Saavik said it was unstable. Maybe it's just not worth using it. Maybe it has a lot of power and just breaks down and becomes worthless at some point.

Spore drive potentially destroys the entirety of all existence everywhere and in every reality.

And yet, they keep using it. . Really, once they realized just how bad it was they should have ceased using it immediately. I mean, after they found out warp drive was causing damage to subspace in TNG Starfleet immediately added restrictions to its use until it could be perfected.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Relatedly, I'm looking forward to finding out how the Red Angel expects the Federation to stop this galaxy-ranging enemy when the Federation doesn't have galaxy-spanning standard propulsion. I know it's a sci-fi trope to have all-encompassing threats, but arghhhhhhhh this is why I'm sick of the Star Trek franchise stagnating so long in the technologically-limited 23rd century. If this was the 25th century or something then I would find the stakes of success in the face of such disparity more believable.

 

[Damian]

Relatedly, I'm looking forward to finding out how the Red Angel expects the Federation to stop this galaxy-ranging enemy when the Federation doesn't have galaxy-spanning standard propulsion. I know it's a sci-fi trope to have all-encompassing threats, but arghhhhhhhh this is why I'm sick of the Star Trek franchise stagnating so long in the technologically-limited 23rd century. If this was the 25th century or something then I would find the stakes of success in the face of such disparity more believable.

Yeah, it probably would have been better if they had placed it in the 25th century or later. That would have given them much greater freedom, esp. since they want to work in the prime timeline. Then they could probably have had 'spore' drive without having to worry about explaining why it's impossible to use. And they wouldn't have to tie themselves in knots trying to explain how it's 10 years pre-TOS all the time.

It freed TNG a great deal by being almost a century later. Why not Discovery?

 

[RonG]

Yeah, it probably would have been better if they had placed it in the 25th century or later. That would have given them much greater freedom, esp. since they want to work in the prime timeline. Then they could probably have had 'spore' drive without having to worry about explaining why it's impossible to use. And they wouldn't have to tie themselves in knots trying to explain how it's 10 years pre-TOS all the time.

It freed TNG a great deal by being almost a century later. Why not Discovery?

"freed" TNG from what?

On that matter, the creators/ writers/producers of DSC placed it when they did *because that is part of the story they wanted to tell*.. and anyone "demanding" an explanation for this or that? that's *their* problem / issue..
Don't like it? Don't have to watch it

 

[Leto_II]

I think the difference is the spore drive is used over and over again. With Genesis it was used once, the protomatter was revealed as a fatal flaw and it was never used again. You can infer that it was never used again because protomatter was required to make it work, making it unsafe. Even David in TSFS said "Genesis doesn't work..." If I remember correctly I think John Vornholt even went into that a bit with his Genesis Wave books. In a way, I think they rationalized why Genesis was a failed project pretty well. Protomatter, David saying it doesn't work...and then best of all the planetoid basically falls apart.

We see protomatter at least temporarily resurrected in the 24th Century, in DS9: “Playing God,” when Dr. Seyetik uses it to help reignite a dead star in the episode.

 

[Christopher]

I mean when it comes to protomatter--I can see a substance that there's just no safe way to handle it. That no amount of safeguards is going to help.

Again: What could possibly be more destructive and dangerous than antimatter, a substance that literally destroys anything that touches it? Hell, not only destroys it, but completely annihilates its material substance and leaves only pure energy. How can anything in the universe be scarier or more unmanageable than that??? If they've tamed antimatter, then any other substance imaginable should be comparatively easy to work with.

I have the same problem when they do stories about the search for amazing new energy sources or the invention of extraordinarily powerful new explosives. Antimatter is already the ultimate of both. It's the 100% conversion of mass to energy -- there is no energy source, no destructive force, that can possibly surpass that. (Well, except vacuum energy, maybe, within certain restrictions, but by DS9 they have that with quantum torpedoes.)

And yet, they keep using it. . Really, once they realized just how bad it was they should have ceased using it immediately.

I agree with that, but one has to make allowances for narrative purposes. The only way they could justify putting Pike in command of Discovery was if Discovery could let him pursue a mission no other ship could perform, and the one unique thing about Discovery is spore drive. So I can excuse them prolonging its use one more season, as long as they finally follow through on their promise to abandon it after that. Two years isn't that long a time in the grand scheme of things. What matters is that it's gone by the time TOS rolls around.

 

[Enterprise1701]

"freed" TNG from what?

On that matter, the creators/ writers/producers of DSC placed it when they did *because that is part of the story they wanted to tell*.. and anyone "demanding" an explanation for this or that? that's *their* problem / issue..
Don't like it? Don't have to watch it

Sounds like a lame excuse for thematic dissonance.

 

[Greg Cox]

I have the same problem when they do stories about the search for amazing new energy sources or the invention of extraordinarily powerful new explosives. Antimatter is already the ultimate of both. It's the 100% conversion of mass to energy -- there is no energy source, no destructive force, that can possibly surpass that. (Well, except vacuum energy, maybe, within certain restrictions, but by DS9 they have that with quantum torpedoes.)

See also that super-explosive Garth is experimenting with in "Whom Gods Destroy." We get a lot of hyperbolic dialogue about how dangerous it is, but all it really does is blow up Yvonne Craig real good. Why it's somehow more potentially destructive than, say, the Enterprise is never really explained.

 

[Christopher]

See also that super-explosive Garth is experimenting with in "Whom Gods Destroy." We get a lot of hyperbolic dialogue about how dangerous it is, but all it really does is blow up Yvonne Craig real good. Why it's somehow more potentially destructive than, say, the Enterprise is never really explained.

I chalk that up to a delusion on Garth's part. It was just a conventional chemical explosive that he believed, in his psychosis, to be a superweapon.

 

[Damian]

What could possibly be more destructive and dangerous than antimatter

Protomatter. Duh

Ok, seriously though. I see and actually agree with some of your points. I'm just saying I could envision there being a substance that is just not safe to handle or maybe a combination of unsafe and not worth it. Genesis failed because of it. So perhaps it's more than it's just unsafe.

Is there something more unsafe than antimatter, maybe? They really didn't make any comparisons in TWOK/TSFS about it. I just assumed it's one of those things that didn't work, probably for a number of reasons. It's use was banned, much like subspace weapons in Insurrection. It has to be pretty dangerous for it's used to be banned basically.

I agree with that, but one has to make allowances for narrative purposes. The only way they could justify putting Pike in command of Discovery was if Discovery could let him pursue a mission no other ship could perform, and the one unique thing about Discovery is spore drive.

It seems kind of odd to create fantastical drive that by necessity has to be abandoned. Whereas if they had created for use in the nu-TNG show for instance, they could have probably kept it. But we know the spore drive, because it can't exist by the time of TOS has be ended.

I chalk that up to a delusion on Garth's part. It was just a conventional chemical explosive that he believed, in his psychosis, to be a superweapon.

Yeah, that was my sense as well. Now, of course Kirk is still nervous when Garth is casually tossing it around because it's obviously powerful enough to kill, but yeah, I never believed it was the 'most' destructive weapon ever created.

Now, I agree there are many instances of technology here and gone. Usually they are one and done episodes and typically don't reappear, making them easier to write off. My argument is the spore drive is such an integral part to Discovery as a whole. It's clearly not one and done. And it just seems odd they would continue using it under any circumstances if it's even more dangerous than antimatter and Genesis. That's almost insanity. That's all I'm really saying.

 

[Christopher]

Is there something more unsafe than antimatter, maybe? They really didn't make any comparisons in TWOK/TSFS about it. I just assumed it's one of those things that didn't work, probably for a number of reasons. It's use was banned, much like subspace weapons in Insurrection. It has to be pretty dangerous for it's used to be banned basically.

As I said, I just don't accept that. You can't just say the words and have it be meaningful. Antimatter is more than "pretty dangerous." It's insanely dangerous. It literally cannot be touched without an instant kaboom. And it is, gram for gram, the most destructive force that is physically possible in the universe. So don't just say the words -- tell me how something can be more dangerous than that.

In short, antimatter is so hard to handle that if they've found a way to use it safely, they should be able to use anything safely. Anything else should be easy in comparison.

And it just seems odd they would continue using it under any circumstances if it's even more dangerous than antimatter and Genesis. That's almost insanity. That's all I'm really saying.

I don't disagree. But it's far from the first implausible thing in Trek history. It doesn't break the continuity any more than any of the past absurdities and inconsistencies.