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DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

JD said:
From the reviews and comments and stuff I saw I was under the impression, that that was kind of the whole point of their arc, that they had been vigilantes so long that they had changed and gone against what they originally were when they first started. I got the impression that they were kind of a cautionary example for what Robin might become if he continued down the darker path he was on.
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Except the show establishes that they were always violent, with a flashback revealing that Batman was telling Robin to stay away from them years ago because of how violent they were. They didn't become violent, they've been violent since they first started being vigilantes.

Plus, Robin murders more people in the first two episodes then they do in one (unless you believe Robin sticking large chunks of metal through people's throats to be non-lethal, like some of the show's fans would probably claim), so he definitely isn't less dark or violent then they are.
 
Professor Zoom said:
From what you saw of the show...
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They were known as being ultra violent 5 years before the events of Titans. Robin treated them as new people on the scene in the flashback in episode 2, the metaphorical "bad boy/girl" Batman didn't want him to interact with because they were violent nutjobs. So, I doubt either of them had a less violent period that the show just magically doesn't mention.

This is a show were literally every DC character who has been on screen except Beast Boy has murdered at least one person in cold blood. Hawk & Dove in this show are no different, its just the fact that the show is too stupid to understand what the Hawk & Dove dynamic needs to be to make any sense that makes them notable. They're all psychotic killers, but most of the characters weren't created in the comics to explicitly be as non violent as possible, which is why I focus on Dove even though every single character is awful and a complete fuck you to both their creators and fans of the characters in other media.
 
@kirk55555 I think it would behoove you to stop assuming that just because something is done differently than you think it ought to have been done or than was done in the comics that the people who made the decision to do said thing differently are "too stupid", "don't understand", or are "being disrespectful" of how said thing was originally done.
 
Enterprise is Great said:
kirk55555 is right on this. Hawk and Dove always violent on Titans.
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Oh, OK, I guess I remembered wrong or misunderstood then.
Even so, I don't see where this is that big of a deal, this is exactly the kind of changes shows and movies have always made. Just look how many people Tim Burton's Batman kill, and even MCU heroes like Iron Man have done their fair share of killing.
 
JD said:
Even so, I don't see where this is that big of a deal, this is exactly the kind of changes shows and movies have always made. Just look how many people Tim Burton's Batman kill, and even MCU heroes like Iron Man have done their fair share of killing.
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That's true enough in general... but when the characters are literally named Hawk and Dove, it seems to be missing the point of the characters to make them both equally violent.
 
fireproof78 said:
Are we, perhaps, being a little too literal here?
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No; when Steve Ditko created Hawk and Dove in 1968, he created them specifically as a commentary on the Vietnam-era moral debates between pro-military and pacifist ideas. Hank and Don Hall were brothers, one a tough, aggressive he-man and the other a bookish pacifist, who constantly argued with each other and had diametrically opposite approaches to crimefighting. That was the entire core idea behind the characters.
 
Christopher said:
No; when Steve Ditko created Hawk and Dove in 1968, he created them specifically as a commentary on the Vietnam-era moral debates between pro-military and pacifist ideas. Hank and Don Hall were brothers, one a tough, aggressive he-man and the other a bookish pacifist, who constantly argued with each other and had diametrically opposite approaches to crimefighting. That was the entire core idea behind the characters.
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Alright then.
 
JD said:
No.
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Wow, really? That's astonishing. The dove has been used as a symbol of peace since early Christendom, and "hawk" (or "War Hawk") as a term for a militarist has been in American political usage since the War of 1812. (It's even in the Wonder Woman TV theme. "Make a hawk a dove / Stop a war with love / Make a liar tell it true.") And didn't you ever wonder what the Star Trek episode title "Day of the Dove" meant?
 
I never really thought about it.
While I can see where the decision to treat Hawk and Dove the way Titans apparently does might be a problem, it's still not enough for me to call the writers, idiots, or assholes, or accuse them of not liking or never reading the comics.
 
JD said:
While I can see where the decision to treat Hawk and Dove the way Titans apparently does might be a problem, it's still not enough for me to call the writers, idiots, or assholes, or accuse them of not liking or never reading the comics.
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When did I say anything like that? I just said "it seems to be missing the point of the characters."
 
JD said:
I never really thought about it.
While I can see where the decision to treat Hawk and Dove the way Titans apparently does might be a problem, it's still not enough for me to call the writers, idiots, or assholes, or accuse them of not liking or never reading the comics.
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Well yeah, you're a reasonable person with a sense of perspective and maturity.
 
JD said:
I never really thought about it.
While I can see where the decision to treat Hawk and Dove the way Titans apparently does might be a problem, it's still not enough for me to call the writers, idiots, or assholes, or accuse them of not liking or never reading the comics.
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Too reasonable here. This needs 25% more outrage and 10% more accusations.
 
Christopher said:
When did I say anything like that? I just said "it seems to be missing the point of the characters."
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I don’t think he was only commenting on you. There are recent posts in the thread by someone who routinely makes such vitriolic comments (and worse).
 
Titans is kind of a Snyder fever dream, the type they seem to be getting away from or at least don't want to be shackled with for every project. I think it's guilty of "trying too hard" at times to be edgy which is never cool. Their apparent willingness now to stretch a bit with the individual projects seems a good way to go. I don't know if it's the best way to get the big-ass box office paydays for the studios but I think as a viewer the projects may be more rewarding.
 
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