when did TOS take place, 23rd century or 22nd century

[Damian]

They spent days on the planet's surface with equipment beamed down from the ship. The fact that Spock dated events multiple times in the episode really indicates that the timeline was supported by all of their in-universe scientific analysis.

I got that impression myself. They all seemed pretty certain the plague that wiped out all the adults occurred 300 years prior. I figured it was a combination of their own analysis along with all the records they were reading.

Sure it's not definitively stated in the episode that they carbon dated the ruins or anything. But I figured if the writers wrote into the episode 300 years several times, their intent was that it was 300 years later. Otherwise why would they bring it up more than once? They obviously wanted us to believe 300 years had passed.

 

[uniderth]

My question is, did Star Trek exist as a TV show on Earth 2 back in its 1960s?

 

[J.T.B.]

My question is, did Star Trek exist as a TV show on Earth 2 back in its 1960s?

Or The Andy Griffith Show?

 

[Marsden]

Bear in mind, Miri's "Earth" was an exact duplicate. There were many worlds that were very "Earth-like" almost to a painful degree but none of them were an exact duplicate. Even Omega 4 with the Yangs' Constitution was not very much like Earth in appearance. Tyree's world, Capella, the Romans' world and Zeon and Ekos were all Earth-like but not identical, list not exhaustive.

 

[blssdwlf]

Kirk's early log entry, "a planet which apparently is an exact duplicate of the Earth" is before they landed on the planet and only from orbital measurements of the planet. As they explored the city at least one major difference they came across is that Kirk's Earth in the 1960's apparently didn't run a life extending experiment. If one major thing like that can be different then there probably are other differences that only become apparent from exploring the planet in detail. What that also means is that Miri's Earth timeline could be quite different compared to Kirk's Earth.

 

[BK613]

And even if the intent of Miri was that ST was 300 years into the future (I don't hold to that), that 23rd century placement was retconned by Tomorrow is Yesterday and held to by Space Seed, The Savage Curtain and Requiem for Methuselah. You know, four episodes that deal with the history of the Earth, not some duplicate Earth.

 

[Gabriel]

And even if the intent of Miri was that ST was 300 years into the future (I don't hold to that), that 23rd century placement was retconned by Tomorrow is Yesterday and held to by Space Seed, The Savage Curtain and Requiem for Methuselah. You know, four episodes that deal with the history of the Earth, not some duplicate Earth.

Well tell cbs that. Because according to them TOS took place in the 23rd century.

 

[Damian]

Well tell cbs that. Because according to them TOS took place in the 23rd century.

Yeah, true. In a way this debate is pretty much meaningless these days. It's been established, on screen and in canon now by multiple sources that Star Trek took place in the late 23rd century, and now we even have canon evidence of the actual years.

From TMP to TWOK, and TNG, Voyager, Star Trek (2009), STID, Beyond, and Discovery have all established without a doubt when Star Trek takes place. And even in TVH Kirk told Gillian he came from what would be on her calendar as the late 23rd century.

It's fun to debate what the original intent was back in 1966-1969. But it's sort of a moot issue at this point. I mean, unless for some people there was no Star Trek after the animated series.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

As they explored the city at least one major difference they came across is that Kirk's Earth in the 1960's apparently didn't run a life extending experiment.

Yeah, just for the record, that difference is why I said "otherwise" in the context of meaning "besides the apocalypse."

300 years after an apocalypse on a planet that otherwise exactly matched up

 

[Mytran]

It's fun to debate what the original intent was back in 1966-1969. But it's sort of a moot issue at this point. I mean, unless for some people there was no Star Trek after the animated series.

If that were the case, I think a strong argument can be made for the 22nd century (to include a 20th century with a rapidly accelerated space travel technology)

 

[NigellaDeanna20]

the 23rd century, of course! TOS takes place from 2266 to 2269 afaik.

 

[MAGolding]

I never gave this episode much though in the chronology of Star Trek, but currently I'm doing a remastered original series rewatch in production order and just watched "Miri".

In that episode Spock stated that the timeframe that everything went to hell on Earth II was equivalent to about 1960 Earth, and that 300 years had passed since then.

That would place Miri at the 2260's. Now, that is of course assuming that 1960 on Earth II happened at the same time as Earth I.

I think it's probably safe to assume that they wanted the time frame on both Earth's to match. Based on that it's probably safe to assume they wanted to place Star Trek in the 23rd century. At the time you could argue what part of the 23rd century. We now know the exact timeframe of course, but it does seem to match up with the original intent mostly.

Yeah, true. In a way this debate is pretty much meaningless these days. It's been established, on screen and in canon now by multiple sources that Star Trek took place in the late 23rd century, and now we even have canon evidence of the actual years.

From TMP to TWOK, and TNG, Voyager, Star Trek (2009), STID, Beyond, and Discovery have all established without a doubt when Star Trek takes place. And even in TVH Kirk told Gillian he came from what would be on her calendar as the late 23rd century.

It's fun to debate what the original intent was back in 1966-1969. But it's sort of a moot issue at this point. I mean, unless for some people there was no Star Trek after the animated series.

General Comments:

Once again I say that because many different dating systems and calendar eras have been used, are used, and will be used, on Earth in real life, and there is strong evidence that several different calendar eras are used to give Earth dates in different Star Trek productions, it is impossible to tell which dates are given in which dating systems. It is a risky assumption to assume that an Earth date in Star Trek is an Anno Domini date if it is not specified as an Anno Domini date.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_era

Thus it is probable that TOS happens in the 22nd century according to some of the Earth dating systems used in Star Trek movies and episodes, and in the 23rd century according according to some of the Earth dating systems used in Star Trek movies and episodes, and quite possibly in other centuries according to some of the Earth dating systems used in Star Trek movies and episodes.

And it is not so certain which century AD TOS happens in, and less certain which decade and years in that century.

The key dates used in establishing the dates of various Star Trek productions are not specified as being AD or CE (Current era or Common Era) dates, and thus the official dates of various Star Trek productions are not canonical proof that those productions happen on those dates.

The Interpretation of "Miri":

In "Miri" they beam down to a street with 19th century urban architecture and mid 20th century automobiles:

KIRK: Identical. Earth, as it was in the early 1900s.
SPOCK: More the, er, mid-1900s I would say, Captain, approximately 1960.
RAND: But where is everybody?
SPOCK: Readings indicate that natural deterioration has been taking place on this planet for at least several centuries.

This indicates that they used Anno Domini dating in "Miri", or at least a dating system counting years from an era close to AD 1.

Going into an abandoned building they find a piano in one room:

KIRK: How old is this thing?
SPOCK: About three hundred years.

There are several ways to interpret this:

One way would be to assume that Spock, with his vast knowledge of old Earth musical instruments, decided that the piano was of a design built about AD 1960, and then calculated the Earth years since then to say "about three hundred years". That would place "Miri" about AD 2260, give or take as many years as Spock's "about" allows.

A second way would be to assume that Spock scanned the wood in the piano and carbon dated the cutting down of its tree(s) to about 300 years ago. That would prove that the piano was made about 300 years (plus or minus an unknown number of years due to Spock's "about") before "Miri", and some short or long time after the piano was made a disaster happened, also a few centuries before "Miri". It would say nothing about the Anno Domini date of "Miri".

A third way would be to assume that Spock decided that the thickness of the dust on top of the piano indicated that the dust had been piling up on the piano for about 300 years, and thus that the disaster had happened about 300 years ago. That would prove that 300 years ago the alien society had been about as advanced as Earth in 1960. But it would say nothing about the Anno Domini date of "Miri".

A fourth way would be to assume that after saying:

SPOCK: Readings indicate that natural deterioration has been taking place on this planet for at least several centuries. [/QUOTE]

Spock continued to take readings, and soon narrowed down "at least several centuries" since the disaster to "about three hundred years" since the disaster. So when Kirk asked how old the piano was, Spock told him that it had been abandoned for "about three hundred years", since Spock did not know how old the piano was when abandoned or the total age of the piano.

That would prove that 300 years ago the alien society had been about as advanced as Earth in 1960. But it would say nothing about the Anno Domini date of "Miri".

And why assume that Miri's Planet, as it is sometimes called, was about as advanced as Earth in AD 1960 when the life prolongation project resulted in a disaster? Could Earth have started such a project with mid 20th century science? If mid 20th century Earth could have started such a project, why didn't they? How many of your relatives have died in the 50 years since then whose lives might have been saved by a successful life prolongation project?

It seems possible that Miri's Planet was decades or centuries more advanced than 1960 Earth or even 2019 Earth.

The town might have been inhabited by equivalents of Amish or survivalists or simple lifers for decades or centuries until it eventually became owned by the life prolongation project which didn't bother to modernize the appearance of the buildings and continued to use the old fashioned cars.

Or possibly the town was some sort of recreation of a centuries old lifestyle, like Colonial Williamsburg, or maybe a theme park about a past society like Westworld, which may have gone bankrupt and been bought by the life prolongation project.

Or the town could have been a place with a lot of well maintained (until the disaster) centuries old buildings. I have spent a lot of time in Cape May, New Jersey, where there are block after block of 19th century Victorian houses and buildings, covering far more ground than the outdoor set used in "Miri". And of course there are many quaint old towns and villages in Europe filled with centuries old buildings.

So possibly the life prolongation project took place in a town filled with centuries old buildings, and where the inhabitants might have used vehicles that looked like centuries like automobiles on the outside.

It is certainly possible that Miri's Planet might have been more advanced than 22nd or 23rd century Earth when the disaster struck, with the life prolongation project merely being located in a very old looking community.

The society on Miri's Planet could have been advanced enough for interstellar travel:

KIRK: Earth-style distress signal. SOS.
FARRELL: I've answered it on all frequencies, sir. They don't reply.
SPOCK: Not a vessel, a ground source. The third planet in this solar system, according to my instruments.
FARRELL: Directly ahead. Definitely an Earth-style signal.

And:

KIRK: We'll beam down. Alert security. Prepare to transport landing party to surface. We'll land in the vicinity of the distress signals now being received.

So they didn't beam down to a random location on the planet, but to the town where the distress signal was being sent from.

And:

KIRK: There must be records somewhere and answers to some of our questions. Miri, do you know any buildings where the doctors used to work?
MIRI: Yes, I know that. Them and their pills and things.
KIRK: Will you take me there?
MIRI: That's a bad place.
KIRK: It's important. Please.
MIRI: All right. Do you have a name, too?

And:

Captain's Log, stardate 2713.6. The building Miri led us to also housed an automatic transmission station, which sent out the signal that drew us to this planet. We also discovered something else. That the blues blotches, characteristic of the unknown disease had appeared on each of us, with the exception of Mister Spock. There was a well-equipped laboratory in the building. Doctor McCoy took tissue samples of each of us in an attempt to isolate the organism responsible.

So the rather small laboratory in the town, the laboratory where the life prolongation project worked, also housed the only transmitter on the planet that sent a distress signal during the disaster.

That indicates that the town they beamed down to might have been the largest or only settlement on the planet, which might have been colonized by another planet, probably in another star system. The entire colony might have been established to work on the life prolongation project.

And possibly it was fashionable at that time to build buildings and use vehicles that looked very old fashioned, like mid 20th century Earth.

If that is the case, it would be uncertain whether the other planet(s) of their civilization quarantined Miri's Planet to avoid the plague, or if they sent assistance and the plague spread back to those other planets.

 

[Damian]

General Comments:




I think you're overthinking the whole AD thing. I'm pretty sure in later shows they were using the year system most familiar to it's viewers, many who are American or European who use the AD year system. And in "The Neutral Zone" Data tells the 'refugees' from the 20th century the year. I think it's safe to assume he would give them the year as they, as Americans, would know it. In TVH Kirk tells Gillian that he comes from what she would consider the late 23rd century. Again, I think we can assume he's telling her the timeframe as she would know it.

As far as Miri, well, I agree that will depend on how one interprets things. By itself I'd agree it's not definitive at placing the original series. However, given later information it just happens to fit. Don't forget, the distress signal sent out wasn't advanced. It was an old style SOS. I take what they said at face value. That the timeframe at the time of the disaster was equivalent to 1960's Earth and about 300 years had passed, mainly because it was said more than once. As Gabriel I think has noted it's probably safe to assume as their stay extended on the planet they probably confirmed it through analysis of the ruins and the records left behind, among other things. An advanced Starfleet ship probably has tools for pinning that information down pretty easily. Now as for the life prolongation project they were working on---I agree it's a bit of a discontinuity. But that can pretty easily be explained by an almost freak discovery by some genius scientist. Just because the development may be parallel does not necessarily mean the people are exactly the same. It may have simply been a 'lucky' find by some scientist working on the right experiment at the right time. Certainly the equipment left behind is not what I would call advanced

 

[Damian]

I think you're overthinking the whole AD thing. I'm pretty sure in later shows they were using the year system most familiar to it's viewers, many who are American or European who use the AD year system. And in "The Neutral Zone" Data tells the 'refugees' from the 20th century the year. I think it's safe to assume he would give them the year as they, as Americans, would know it. In TVH Kirk tells Gillian that he comes from what she would consider the late 23rd century. Again, I think we can assume he's telling her the timeframe as she would know it.

As far as Miri, well, I agree that will depend on how one interprets things. By itself I'd agree it's not definitive at placing the original series. However, given later information it just happens to fit. Don't forget, the distress signal sent out wasn't advanced. It was an old style SOS. I take what they said at face value. That the timeframe at the time of the disaster was equivalent to 1960's Earth and about 300 years had passed, mainly because it was said more than once. As Gabriel I think has noted it's probably safe to assume as their stay extended on the planet they probably confirmed it through analysis of the ruins and the records left behind, among other things. An advanced Starfleet ship probably has tools for pinning that information down pretty easily. Now as for the life prolongation project they were working on---I agree it's a bit of a discontinuity. But that can pretty easily be explained by an almost freak discovery by some genius scientist. Just because the development may be parallel does not necessarily mean the people are exactly the same. It may have simply been a 'lucky' find by some scientist working on the right experiment at the right time. Certainly the equipment left behind is not what I would call advanced[/QUOTE]​

 

[blssdwlf]

Yeah, just for the record, that difference is why I said "otherwise" in the context of meaning "besides the apocalypse."

Right, and just for the record, that's why I said, "at least one" major difference in the context that if they had one catastrophic experiment different from Kirk's Earth then other details can be different as well. The argument of "exact duplicate" is only good for the initial scan from orbit but from the story itself it's obvious that there are differences in detail that differentiate Miri's Earth from say Kirk's Earth where we cannot tell what Miri's Earth timeline was.

Kirk's early log entry, "a planet which apparently is an exact duplicate of the Earth" is before they landed on the planet and only from orbital measurements of the planet. As they explored the city at least one major difference they came across is that Kirk's Earth in the 1960's apparently didn't run a life extending experiment. If one major thing like that can be different then there probably are other differences that only become apparent from exploring the planet in detail. What that also means is that Miri's Earth timeline could be quite different compared to Kirk's Earth.

 

[Mudd]

Assuming Miri's Earth is a duplicate of our Earth...Miri is now probably in her 70s.

 

[Damian]

Ugh, I'm almost sorry I brought Miri up. I thought it was just another piece of information to add to the mix. I just always assumed that since it was parallel in every other way that it was parallel in time as well. It was something I never really questioned to be honest because I figured the writers intended on the timeframes being equal as well. It seems odd that it would match our Earth in every way but one.

And in retrospect it happens to match the time frame we now know from the movies and numerous spin-offs.

 

[Timo]

Perhaps this is how advanced cultures deal with the Prime Directive? They observe "cusp moments" where things could go badly wrong, but even though they are damn near omnipotent, they aren't omniscient - so just to be sure, they let the events play out in several different ways. Just as if playing a computer game, they press a button at the cusp moment. Only it isn't "save", it's "copy"...

But yes, TOS gives us half a dozen cases of Earth cultural influence spreading to the stars in a decidedly anachronistic fashion: say, the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence find their way not only to another planet, but to the distant past as well. TOS also gives us John Gill, an example of how Earth cultural influence can spread. It isn't all that difficult to jump to the next conclusion, of there being John Gills galore, many of them operating time machines rather than mere starships.

This completely negates the value of said cultural influences as dating anchorpoints. Which is for the best in the end...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[cooleddie74]

Anybody else taste copper?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Right, and just for the record, that's why I said, "at least one" major difference in the context that if they had one catastrophic experiment different from Kirk's Earth then other details can be different as well. The argument of "exact duplicate" is only good for the initial scan from orbit but from the story itself it's obvious that there are differences in detail that differentiate Miri's Earth from say Kirk's Earth where we cannot tell what Miri's Earth timeline was.

I already conceded that there's plenty to argue from the perspective of hard continuity that isn't going to make "Miri" work as an example.

It isn't a data point relevant for hard continuity concerns for the reasons stated by @BK613.

The location in space alone is enough to differentiate the planet from Earth, by the way.

None of this detracts from the episode still qualifying as a data point. The reasons why it's good don't exist on the textual level, but they do exist on the metatextual level.