Spoilers General Disco Chat Thread
- Thread starter Lord Garth
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Let me just quote TVtropes on Soft Reboots
You have a classic property, one that's made money hand over fist for you for years, perhaps decades, but now, it's getting a little long in the tooth. Maybe it's dated, maybe recent installments have tarnished its name, maybe it's just bogged down in Continuity Lockout. Resetting the thing to bring in new fans sounds like a good idea, but you're afraid the backlash among existing fans to a Continuity Reboot will be epic in its drama. What to do? Well, instead of starting over, dip into the Troper Well and pull out a way of explaining you're not really tossing away the classic stories the fans love. No, this is an Alternate Timeline. Or a sequel set sometime after the events of the old series that mentions the things fans loved but quietly neglects or RetCons the things not so beloved. Or a prequel, or even a separate adventure taking place somewhere else so you have an excuse not to mention the events of the original series.
In short, it's an in-continuity remake. A compromise between making a sequel and a remake/reboot.
Star Trek Discovery IS being written as a soft-reboot as much as the creators want to deny it. It ticks literally every single box of a Soft Reboot. The show just makes 100x more sense being one as well. I have no idea why they keep denying it. It's the "Prime*" Timeline Jim, but not as we know it.
He and Sarek's backstory involving him was retconned out of existence by TNG anyway so the writers agree with you there.
L'Rell will come swooping in on one to save the Disco from some threat. (While Ride of the Valkyries plays in the original Klingon)
Though I don't rule it out, I don't see how the Klingons could be worked into the rest of the the season. It seems to me now like "Point of Light" was meant to serve as a break-off point to take focus off the Klingons for a while.
I think that's why they packed everything into "Point of Light" because they knew they weren't going to come around back to it while they were focusing on the Red Angels. I could very well be wrong, but that's just my take on it.
I think that's why they packed everything into "Point of Light" because they knew they weren't going to come around back to it while they were focusing on the Red Angels. I could very well be wrong, but that's just my take on it.
All we need to finally get the Klingons back into the picture is a red light appearing over Qo'noS
Fitting song for the Red Angels to appear over TOS's Cold War-style enemies. Red Skies by The Fixx...
Or its an UPDATE. It's the setting of pre-TOS, but updated to the idea that hey, its 2019 and the future looks different from today than it did from 1966 so there will be different staging, costuming and vfx to take into account its no longer the swinging sixties but just before our entry into the 2020s. IMO, there no more continuity bugs that effect storylines in Disco than there has been from previous Star Trek series from one to another as they progresses, even if the staging, costuming and vfx didn't change much.
However, the page for SOFT REBOOT is pretty fluid in what it terms things that fit. It suggests that Season 3 of TNG could be considered a SR and Mad Max Fury Road a SR and their differences from previous material is canyon wide.
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I agree. It boils down to intent and TVTropes quote is way too over thought. When the folks in charge sat down to create Discovery I think they opted to Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS). As Roi points out they wanted to update while trying to keep it all in line as much as possible. The look and feel must meet modern audience expectations. I don't see how or where they go beyond that.
I would absolutely agree TNG was Soft Reboot, hell it's basically flat out admitted that TMP was as well in Roddenberry speaking through Kirk.
Perhaps technically, but what makes Discovery so much more grating is that it's a "soft" reboot basically directly in an established timeline we've seen on screen before. TNG got away with it because it was set so far in the future after TOS where Discovery heavily retcons the visuals and major story and character elements of both TOS and ENT and is directly retconning major characters like Spock. Discovery's Retcons have been pretty jarring for me to the point that I wonder if ENT is even considered canon anymore by the writing staff. I personally don't care that much about things like Holograms or whatever, but Discovery to me does just work better as it's own Prime(*) universe reboot.
While I agree. I still think they could have done this and fit it in with TOS/Cage era aesthetics. The problem is they just went "uhh sci fi, uh the kids like Expanse and Mass Effect" and did that. For me one of Disco's main missed opportunities is doing something really stylish and sci-fi with modernist design trends that you could really see would become TOS aesthetics (they were planning on doing this with S5 of ENT as well and that stuff looks amazing). The uniforms alone, really at this point I think we should be seeing something that would could see becoming the classic TOS uniforms (hence my avatar which is from a fashion collection that was basically inspired to be just that) but there is no real connect between the blue jumpsuits and the TOS uniforms. To me as well it would have been nice to see some probably more 1940s-1950s hairstyles and fashion cues in the costuming and makeup thus showing the natural lead into the 60s aesthetic of TOS, on top of that, it would just look really cool and unique and stylish instead of generic which frankly the design work currently is.
They went really out there with the Klingons and that is something I enjoy (though I wish we saw at least modern take on a few TOS/ENT augment klingons and their uniforms) but for some reason imo they kind of just half-assed it with the Federation and if Fuller is to be believed, that was due to top down interference. (Most likely suits pointing to Mass Effect and The Expanse and saying "This")
Perhaps technically, but what makes Discovery so much more grating is that it's a "soft" reboot basically directly in an established timeline we've seen on screen before. TNG got away with it because it was set so far in the future after TOS where Discovery heavily retcons the visuals and major story and character elements of both TOS and ENT and is directly retconning major characters like Spock. Discovery's Retcons have been pretty jarring for me to the point that I wonder if ENT is even considered canon anymore by the writing staff. I personally don't care that much about things like Holograms or whatever, but Discovery to me does just work better as it's own Prime(*) universe reboot.
While I agree. I still think they could have done this and fit it in with TOS/Cage era aesthetics. The problem is they just went "uhh sci fi, uh the kids like Expanse and Mass Effect" and did that. For me one of Disco's main missed opportunities is doing something really stylish and sci-fi with modernist design trends that you could really see would become TOS aesthetics (they were planning on doing this with S5 of ENT as well and that stuff looks amazing). The uniforms alone, really at this point I think we should be seeing something that would could see becoming the classic TOS uniforms (hence my avatar which is from a fashion collection that was basically inspired to be just that) but there is no real connect between the blue jumpsuits and the TOS uniforms. To me as well it would have been nice to see some probably more 1940s-1950s hairstyles and fashion cues in the costuming and makeup thus showing the natural lead into the 60s aesthetic of TOS, on top of that, it would just look really cool and unique and stylish instead of generic which frankly the design work currently is.
They went really out there with the Klingons and that is something I enjoy (though I wish we saw at least modern take on a few TOS/ENT augment klingons and their uniforms) but for some reason imo they kind of just half-assed it with the Federation and if Fuller is to be believed, that was due to top down interference. (Most likely suits pointing to Mass Effect and The Expanse and saying "This")
There was a video Mary posted of her in L'Rell make up and in costume with Shazad in Uniform on a Discovery set.
So they were filming some L'Rell stuff at the same time that Shazad was filming stuff after becoming liaison on Discovery.
So they were filming some L'Rell stuff at the same time that Shazad was filming stuff after becoming liaison on Discovery.
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A Retcon is a change to a previous event. Exactly what previous event has been retconned?None of the events in Disco were explored in previous Star Trek series. Not even of Spock, Sarek, or anyone else who has shown up that we've encountered before in reference to the specific events experienced here. And I get that you want Star Trek prequels to be retro to the 1960s but that seems a bit absurd. I mean, that's like suggesting ENT should have had a 1860s steampunk aesthetic.
I suggest you take the classic Roddenberry explanation for updates made for TMP:
"It always looked this way."
If that explanation was good enough for Gene, its good enough for me.
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That answers that then.
Like it or not, the Klingons have been extremely retconned and ENT's augment plotline has been thrown completely in the bin, which people think here was stupid to begin with, but frankly, it was one of ENT's better episode arcs. The Klingon War also retconned basically a lot of Trek Geopolitics we go from "The Klingons have never even dreamed of attacking earth directly" in DS9 to Earth basically being completely surrounded and about to collapse a few years before TOS... riiiiight. Also lets be real, this S31 stuff is absolutely a retcon and an absolutely terrible one. They took what was already a cheesy, bad concept and somehow made it even worse.
Perhaps, but frankly, the entire Spock plotline here is just extremely on the nose. Also throwing in Spock had a super secret awesome sister which was the real reason Spock joined Starfleet and all this stuff. Ugh fanfiction level writing.
Except we know the fashion, design and uniforms of this era of Starfleet, we've seen it directly on screens and it's arguably the most iconic sci-fi aesthetic out there next to Star Wars and they are just like "Yeah throw that in the trash, copy these other boring generic properties". Also ENT did far better starting to integrate into TOS aesthetics than Discovery, hell in ENT they actually went with a slight 1950s inspiration with things and as we see going into S5 it was going to start to look a hell of a lot more like an updated TOS.
Except Discovery's aesthetics are boring generic and cookie cutter despite the amazing VFX work while TOS is arguably the single most iconic science fiction design work next to Star Wars. I'll take TOS aesthetics over Mass Discovery Expanse any day.
Discovery's aesthetics really are one of extreme missed potential and I could perfectly understand why Fuller walked from the project when he was told he couldn't even have TOS style coloured uniforms because they looked "Campy" or whatever by the suits. Why even set it in this era at all?
As someone that likes the Cardassian women of TNG, DS9 and VOY I can see that.
You make me think of the Rolling Stones song 'Too Much Blood' from their 1983 album Undercover of the Night. Mick Jagger makes references to a Japanese guy in Paris that kills his girlfriend. Unfortunately that was a real 1981 murder.
Pretty much all of your complaints refer to ships that sailed decades ago. as noted below:
1) The Klingons were retconned starting in 1979. Gene set that ball rolling.
2) Spock has had surprise super secret awesome relatives since TOS, who were the real reason he joined Star Fleet since TOS. Gene started that fanfiction (as you call it) ball rolling.
3) Gene deliberately chose to abandon color coded outfits in 1979. Even he knew the color coded outfits were a product of the sixties transition from b/w to color. They have changed over the years ever since
4) Star Trek's aesthetic has always been of the day. It was in the 60s, in the 70s, in the 80s in the 90s in the 00s. You can deny that all you want but its how the series look evolves, it has always evolved. Why should it stop and start going in reverse because some people are nostalgic for the good old days?
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Granted, I'm not a fan of ENT, but I don't remember ENT looking '50s at all. It looked very Early-2000s. The vibe I got off of it was that it was Bush Trek.
Because nostalgia has no logic. It is purely emotionally driven.
In general I tend to agree, but the Section 31 stuff going on here really is pushing the limit, imo. That's not an understandable visual update, it's completely rewriting the concept. And no, it would not make any sense to say the organization needed to go underground so everyone was ordered not to talk about it.
From where I'm standing there's really only one path left to keep S31 consistent and that is for the organization to officially go down in flames and wind up completely outlawed with a few powerful holdouts trying to continue their 'mission' in the shadows. And that would need to happen very soon and without too much public fanfare in order to make it believable that no one on DS9 had ever even heard the name.
We'll see where the whole thing goes, but I honestly don't get the impression that the writers have any intention of this particular element actually connecting naturally to the other shows. It seems to me like they've made the decision to deliberately retcon the entire concept because they want to be able to sell their Georgiou/S31 show as heroic and therefore S31 had to be a legitimate agency, even though it never has been before. And since they presumably want that show to do well and last a reasonably long time, I suspect we'll see them double and triple down on this particular inconsistency rather than make any effort to smooth it over.
Where does the idea that no one ever heard the name of Section 31 before on DS9 come from? Ross seemed to know who they were. Or am I the only one who saw "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"?
Section 31 seems to be on a Need To Know Basis, in both centuries.
Even if that's not the case, DSC and DS9 are 120 years apart. If someone here wants to have a discussion with me about in-depth military history in the 1890s, the finer details of the Spanish-American War, and McKinley's push to American Imperialism, then by all means. But I don't think anything beyond the broad strokes are common knowledge.
Section 31 seems to be on a Need To Know Basis, in both centuries.
Even if that's not the case, DSC and DS9 are 120 years apart. If someone here wants to have a discussion with me about in-depth military history in the 1890s, the finer details of the Spanish-American War, and McKinley's push to American Imperialism, then by all means. But I don't think anything beyond the broad strokes are common knowledge.
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