Dune 2018 (19,20,21...)

[HugeLobes]

Would someone please define "a work of high literature" objectively, together with suitable metrics for measuring this, rather than trotting out the collective perceived wisdom of a bunch of snooty academics or critics.
.

People have been trying to define art for centuries. I don’t think we’re going to get a breakthrough on TrekBBS.

In general, high literature tends to focus more on themes than plot. You read something like Herzog or Mrs Dalloway and not a lot happens, but that’s not why it’s enjoyable. And yes, you’ll tend to find those novels discussed academically since they’re influenced by different aspects of literary theory, especially when you get to modernism and postmodernism.

I’m not saying Dune isn’t fantastic, but it isn’t generally regarded as ‘high literature’.

Just by the by, most literary academics aren’t snooty at all. You get one or two lecturers who fit the bill, but they don’t sit around laughing at genre fiction or anything.

 

[Reverend]

While the story is certainly much more dense & complex than such a pithy logline would imply, I think that there is a portion of the audience who will need the movie to be pitched to them at the level of "Lion King with Sandworms" in order to get them to show up. Given how expensive this movie is likely to be, having as wide an appeal as possible is essential.

Still, I'm kinda wondering if there isn't a ceiling to how well an artsy Villeneuve sci-fi movie can do financially. Arrival made about $203 million off of a $47 million budget. For Blade Runner 2049, they tripled the budget but only saw a 28% increase in box office.

Well, that's why I used the qualifier "not just", because it *is* The Lion King with sandworms...and also it's got a whole bunch of other stuff going on too. So on the surface level, those with the intellectual depth of a teaspoon will still get a spectacle but given the film maker's track record, the spectacle is only one of a myriad of elements that'll make up a complete film.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

People have been trying to define art for centuries. I don’t think we’re going to get a breakthrough on TrekBBS.

In general, high literature tends to focus more on themes than plot. You read something like Herzog or Mrs Dalloway and not a lot happens, but that’s not why it’s enjoyable. And yes, you’ll tend to find those novels discussed academically since they’re influenced by different aspects of literary theory, especially when you get to modernism and postmodernism.

I’m not saying Dune isn’t fantastic, but it isn’t generally regarded as ‘high literature’.

Just by the by, most literary academics aren’t snooty at all. You get one or two lecturers who fit the bill, but they don’t sit around laughing at genre fiction or anything.

I read Herzog and Mrs Dalloway long ago when I had a phase of trying to broaden my knowledge of English literature. I can't say I enjoyed the novels very much but as 20th century works, they seemed easier to get through than I found many 19th century authors' works. Oddly though, I had less problem with 18th century and earlier writers -- Cervantes, Swift, Voltaire, and Homer, for example. If I had also read literary criticism of the books, I might have appreciated them more. However, I think I would have hated doing an Eng Lit degree.

Yeah, my snootiness comment is based on anecdotal evidence and the odd UK TV interview I've seen over the years where academics and critics denegrated science fiction and fantasy. As many noted writers try their hand at one book at least in the SF genre, I don't think it's seen as a career killer nowadays.

I would argue that Dune is great literature based on it being the best selling SF novel ever, its deep and lasting impact on works in other genres, and the penetration of its memes. It might not do anything new from a literary theory point of view but I think it has plenty of original thematic content.

ETA: A positive review of Dune by a critic, who also states that the literati have traditionally looked down their noses at SF and fantasy:

http://www.conceptualfiction.com/dune.html

The notes on conceptual fiction in general are well worth a read.

 

[Aragorn]

Josh Brolin is reportedly in talks to play Gurney Helleck.

 

[The Wormhole]

I guess he can look grizzled enough to be Gurney, but the question is can Josh Brolin sing?

 

[FPAlpha]

I refer you to this:

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So absolutely yes!

And awesome choice for the role, kudos. Now the last remaining ones are Stilgar and Duncan Idaho i believe, that will be interesting. Has Feyd been cast already?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

No, I don't think Feyd has been cast yet.

Interesting choice with Josh Brolin. I can see it working.

 

[Reverend]

And awesome choice for the role, kudos. Now the last remaining ones are Stilgar and Duncan Idaho i believe, that will be interesting. Has Feyd been cast already?

IIRC Zendaya's casting as Chani is just a rumour at this point, as is Javier Bardem as Stilgar.
I don't think there's been any names attached to Feyd yet, or for that matter Duncan, Shaddam, Kynes, Thufir, Yueh, Alia, Piter, Irulan or (fingers crossed) Count and Lady Fenring.


And yeah, Brolin seems like a solid choice for Gurney. He certainly has a proven track record of pulling off scarred and ugly, plus he's a great physical actor.

 

[JD]

Jason Momoa is in talks to play Duncan Idaho.
I don't remember the character that well, but I'm a big fan of Momoa's going all the way back to Stargate: Atlantis, so I'd be pretty happy to see him in this.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Jason Momoa is in talks to play Duncan Idaho.
I don't remember the character that well, but I'm a big fan of Momoa's going all the way back to Stargate: Atlantis, so I'd be pretty happy to see him in this.

Not sure about this.

 

[wayoung]

He's already 40. Doesn't seem like a good choice for the longterm franchise prospects. Plus they'd have to work around DC films and Frontier.....

 

[JD]

Is Duncan that big a part of the stories we'd get after the first movie?

 

[wayoung]

Is Duncan that big a part of the stories we'd get after the first movie?

He's the central figure of the franchise.

 

[JD]

I thought that was Paul and his kids?

 

[wayoung]

I thought that was Paul and his kids?

Nope. Paul is in three books. His son in two. Duncan is in all 6 and is the main character of the final 3.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, given Duncan's role later on perhaps any changes can be explained by that process.

I like Jason Momoa (a lot, actually) but if they plan on going forward that might be difficult. However, I am highly skeptical that this Dune will lead to a series.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

If Dune is split into two movies, Momoa will likely appear in only the first one if the break occurs where I think it will.

I'm happy about the inclusion of a Polynesian actor even if physically he seems more like a wrestler than a swordmaster. In the far future, human lineage is likely to be very tangled and skin colour is probably unimportant. I don't think Frank Herbert described the skin colour of any major character in Dune but I might be wrong. Doctor Wellington Yueh could be played by an east Asian actor and Keynes by an African actor -- why not.

But, yes, unless the viewing public take to these new movies in some way that I can't envisage, we're unlikely to see even Dune Messiah or Children of Dune. That's a pity because the combined TV series of some 15 years ago was stronger than the preceding TV adaptation of Dune.

It'll likely be John Carter all over again. Too much time has passed for any but a few people to be familiar with the original book to care beyond the moment. The new Dune movies might eventually break even but it'll be difficult to get financial backing for a continuation on TV or film.

 

[BK613]

I I don't think Frank Herbert described the skin colour of any major character in Dune but I might be wrong.

Doing a reread and because of this thread, really paying attention to the descriptions. Duke Leto (Paul's father) is described as having dark hair and olive skin in the chapter where we first meet him. Later, Jessica thinks about how his dark skin reminds her of blue waters and tropical climes. And on the spice mining trip, Kynes also noted his dark skin. That's the only one I know that is specific but I am only up to Paul and Jessica crash landing the 'thopter.

edit: to fix a pronoun

 

[wayoung]

Meh, skin colour is only important in one situation.

1) When the characters race is integral to the plot and character. Ie. Kunta Kinte must be black. Story doesn't work if hes played by Benedict Cumberbatch.

The issue with representation is us (us = me) white folk have been the default for so long that we are over represented and when someone isn't white its usually because the skin colour is integral to the character/plot. Which is why it's usually ok to have a person of colour playing a traditionally white role (ie. Theres no reason Batman has to be white) but usually not ok to have a white person take over a black role (Black Panther, Etc.).

So, for Dune, since it takes 25,000 years in the future, the discussion of the Atreides being descended from Agamemnon doesn't mean they have to be played by white actors - there's no reason not to think that in the 28,000 intervening years they had some African or Thai ancestors too.

 

[DrCorby]

Is Duncan that big a part of the stories we'd get after the first movie?

He's the central figure of the franchise.

I thought that was Paul and his kids?

Nope. Paul is in three books. His son in two. Duncan is in all 6 and is the main character of the final 3.

Exactly. That was one of the (many) annoying things about the Lynch movie. Duncan was very important to the young Paul, a personal hero, almost a surrogate father. Thus, with Paul's memories, also important to Leto II. And going forward, almost a mythic figure to the rest of the galaxy, resulting in multiple Duncan gholas being created over thousands of years. And yet, Lynch dispatched Duncan in a very off-handed way, almost unseen. A total disservice to the character.