Why The UFP Would Want the Treaty Of Algeron

[Mojochi]

Let's have another chat about the ban on cloaking. It comes up occasionally, & there's one point of view I rarely see represented, relating to why it's actually a good in universe policy for the UFP.

You'll never hear me argue that cloaks wouldn't be highly beneficial to Starfleet's ships. They SOOOO would be.
The issue you have to examine is why someone would want to deliberately abstain from using something that would be so highly beneficial. What could NOT using cloaks offer that would be better than those benefits it could provide?

The answer has to do with complex relationship dynamics. The United Federation of Planets' intention is to be a benevolent organization of unified galactic bodies. Unlike the Cardassians, Klingons or Romulans, which have empires of conquer & acquisition, it's made up of parties who join voluntarily, for the greater benefit of cooperation. As such, one of the most prominent aspects of being able to maintain a group of volunteers, & maintain that group's exterior relations, would be that it can universally be viewed as nonthreatening, and one of the most beneficial ways to assure your image of benevolence, is literally to be as transparent as possible.

In brief, If the UFP is or becomes a group, with a defining characteristic of being able to be hidden from the people with whom they interact, they become harder to trust, for enemies sure, but also for allies alike. In fact, showing up to the table with it, after a potential adversary has already had it, might even been seen as an aggressive action of an arms race kind, which could destabilize your support

So, it's not in the best interest of the UFP to have its integrity, & its foreign relations disintegrate, once everyone starts realizing that they skulk around in secret invisibility. For an organization that depends on unity, such a posture would be epically disastrous. The better avenue of tech advancement would instead be to find ways to nullify the advantage with better detection... & then share that knowledge. There is a moral high ground in being the non-aggressor this way

Starfleet: We are the guys you don't have to worry will sneak up on you concealed. We've got nothing to hide. That, my friends is how people trust you, & if you stop having that, it's how people stop trusting you, & ultimately the UFP is nothing more than a galactic trust. Without trust... you're just the Ferengi

 

[JesterFace]

Has there ever been talk of how long this treaty of Algeron would be?

Perhaps Federation had plans to use cloacking technology at some point in the future, but around the time TNG took place it was better for the Federation to step back on the cloack tech and get something in return.
Treaty of Algeron wouldn't last forever? Later when the treaty would be examined again, Federation might want to use cloaking tech.

 

[Mojochi]

Has there ever been talk of how long this treaty of Algeron would be?

Perhaps Federation had plans to use cloacking technology at some point in the future, but around the time TNG took place it was better for the Federation to step back on the cloack tech and get something in return.
Treaty of Algeron wouldn't last forever? Later when the treaty would be examined again, Federation might want to use cloaking tech.

There's no real knowing the specifics of the treaty, except it took place between the UFP & the Romulan Empire after the Tomed Incident in 2311, which reestablished & redefined the neutral zone, as well as in some way led to the Romulan withdrawl from interstellar affairs, which could've either been by choice or by treaty design.

Certain noncanon sources suggest the Tomed Incident might have been an act of violence perpetrated by Romulans, & therefore to exact a punitive measure of exiling the Romulan Empire from further interstellar affairs, & then reestablish nonaggressive relations, there were probably certain concessions needed from the UFP

There's no suggestion ever that it would be time sensitive, or event conditional, but if the Romulans were to breach the treaty, for instance by crossing the neutral zone, (An act of war) I'd think under those circumstances, the UFP would in fact be under no obligation to further recognize the ban on cloak use, & seeing how Klingons already possess that technology, it was probably no matter of concern to forbid Starfleet from pursuing it, because if there ever came a time they DID need to pursue it, they could just take advantage of their friendly relations with the Klingons to make use of it

Ultimately, to me the cloak ban sounds like something the Romulans wanted as insurance that the UFP wouldn't be sneaking into Romulan space (Which they had no intention of doing anyhow). When you think about it, there should be no reason Starfleet should need cloaks, as long as they aren't in territory they should be in. As I said before, transparency is a MUCH more beneficial policy for their charter. Plus, if they ever find themselves in a situation where they might need cloaks in their own space, because of encroachment, invasion, or infiltration, once they can prove it, they'd have a treaty breach that would now rescind the ban, & they'd have allies with such capabilities, who they still possess, likely because they aren't the aggressor.

Diplomatic channels are what the UFP has in lieu of cloaking technology. Pressman's problem was that he didn't trust the diplomatic channels to protect the UFP. Starfleet has friends. If you have friends & benign intentions, you don't need to hide. If Romulans attack you, everybody comes to your defense, & the ban is rescinded anyhow. If you never agree to the ban, you likely risked escalation of hostility with the Romulans (Again) & you engage in an arms race of covert technologies that potentially harm your reputation with your friends, who might now see you as less benevolent... & not come to your defense when there is hostility

friends > cloaks

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The Treaty Of Algeron is like the ABM, SALT, and other real world arms-limitation treaties of the Cold War. I've zero doubt that that was the intention of the authors.

The theory of the Cold War treaties was to avoid arms race escalations that would make war more likely, without surrendering the ability to destroy the enemy. It's not more complicated than that.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Something that might be inferred from The Die is Cast is that cloaking becomed less useful on a strategic level : more ships are more easily detected.

 

[Timo]

The Treaty Of Algeron is like the ABM, SALT, and other real world arms-limitation treaties of the Cold War. I've zero doubt that that was the intention of the authors.

The theory of the Cold War treaties was to avoid arms race escalations that would make war more likely, without surrendering the ability to destroy the enemy. It's not more complicated than that.

Also, if you condemn cloaks/nukes as a thing despite their usefulness, it gives you a moral pedestal to stand on when you concentrate on condemning the cloaks/nukes of the enemy.

The UFP might have been the party insisting on the no-cloak clause. Both because they were the underdogs in that style of warfare at the time, and because the Romulans were the top dogs; the ban would hurt the Romulans more.

I mean, we never learned that the treaty would allow Romulans to use cloaks, either. It did forbid them from entering let alone crossing the Neutral Zone, and nevertheless they did; whenever they were seen being invisible, this was on top of that other explicit treaty violation, and thus not worthy of extra comment.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JesterFace]

seeing how Klingons already possess that technology, it was probably no matter of concern to forbid Starfleet from pursuing it, because if there ever came a time they DID need to pursue it, they could just take advantage of their friendly relations with the Klingons to make use of it

Wasn't there a treaty between Klingon and Romulan empires at some point which led to Klingons having cloacking tech?
Did they get it from the Romulans?

..another thing to think about..
I wonder if ”the Pressman incident” with cloacking technology was forgotten by Romulans when Federation asked Romulans that how many times exactly have you violated Neutral Zone recently.

 

[valkyrie013]

Not much Cannon on the Treaty, It was done in 2311, banned UFP use of cloaking divices, and led to a 50 year period of isolation, which I don't belive was part of the treaty, just something they did by themselves.
Now book wise, The Federation belived another war with romulas was inevitable, and vice versa, which makes sense in the timeline because the last time the romulans went in to isolation was after a war ( on a timeline note.. if Disco was made in this era with romulan instead of Klingon war, it would have made more sense..) The romulans wouldn't isolate themselves for no reason, something had to happen. The lost era book was great in a possible explanation of why and how it happened.

 

[Kor]

Wasn't there a treaty between Klingon and Romulan empires at some point which led to Klingons having cloacking tech?
Did they get it from the Romulans?
...

It wasn't specifically discussed in canon materials, but the idea was that there was some kind of treaty at the time of TOS, which led to Romulans using battle cruisers of Klingon design. And presumably, the Klingons would have gotten their cloaking tech then.

Kor

 

[USS Triumphant]

It wasn't specifically discussed in canon materials, but the idea was that there was some kind of treaty at the time of TOS, which led to Romulans using battle cruisers of Klingon design. And presumably, the Klingons would have gotten their cloaking tech then.

Except that, like it (and I do) or not, Discovery IS canon, and modern Klingons copied their cloaking technology from the one on T'Kuvma's ancient Klingon mausoleum ship. Which implies that either ancient Klingons came up with the tech, or captured it from their ancient oppressors (the Hurq?).

 

[Kor]

Except that, like it (and I do) or not, Discovery IS canon, and modern Klingons copied their cloaking technology from the one on T'Kuvma's ancient Klingon mausoleum ship. Which implies that either ancient Klingons came up with the tech, or captured it from their ancient oppressors (the Hurq?).

Retroactive continuity.

Kor

 

[USS Triumphant]

Retroactive continuity.

Which, in a show that frequently involves temporal anomalies, seems perfectly peachy to me.

 

[JesterFace]

^^ Fortunately, everyone can decide for themselves what is canon and what isn't, personal canon.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

^^ Fortunately, everyone can decide for themselves what is canon and what isn't, personal canon.

Anything in your "personal canon" [sic] that isn't official canon is non-canonical.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think the intent was because the writers didn't want the Federation to have cloaks.

Giving the enemy a strategic advantage that's a pretty strong one, without guarantee you can enforce that the enemy won't use it to wage war on you, is a huge risk. We can assume the Federation isn't that stupid and there was some kind of way for the Federation to guarantee that when the treaty was first signed, or the situation was just that bad when the treaty was signed that they were desperate to get them to call of their attack.

 

[Mojochi]

I think the intent was because the writers didn't want the Federation to have cloaks.

Giving the enemy a strategic advantage that's a pretty strong one, without guarantee you can enforce that the enemy won't use it to wage war on you, is a huge risk. We can assume the Federation isn't that stupid and there was some kind of way for the Federation to guarantee that when the treaty was first signed, or the situation was just that bad when the treaty was signed that they were desperate to get them to call of their attack.

But the treaty doesn't grant Romulans the use of cloaks. It's an advantage they already had, & would probably rather wage war instead of give up. So if you don't want war, then it's likely an aspect that is off the negotiating table. So the only options for the UFP is either: (A.) engage in an arms race to develop their own, which is provocative, & it looks weak, to be on the chasing side of an arms race, & the nature of the weapon in question undercuts the overall platform of benevolence which the UFP is supposed to stand for anyhow. You just end up looking like the weaker dog, trying to bark as load, & you lose respect, a far more valuable commodity for an organization like theirs

Or, option B. You don't play into the game. You instead focus on your diplomatic channels, that bolster your alliances, alliances you have with some entities who already have that weapon as well, & could make it available to you, as needed... in your defense, like is done in both The Defector, & Unification.

Why do they really need cloaks, if they have the support of people who already have them, who will back them up, but also might become an enemy, if they began to see actions which are provocative. Going into the cloak business now (Literally being less transparent) is bad public relations, for a group who thrives on being an inclusive community, & the gain is not worth losing that, when there's alternatives, deterrents, & countermeasures which can be used, & developed.

 

[thribs]

Because for some reason the Romulans are terrified of the humans and the Federation. They made this treaty to calm them down.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

But the treaty doesn't grant Romulans the use of cloaks. It's an advantage they already had, & would probably rather wage war instead of give up. So if you don't want war, then it's likely an aspect that is off the negotiating table. So the only options for the UFP is either: (A.) engage in an arms race to develop their own, which is provocative, & it looks weak, to be on the chasing side of an arms race, & the nature of the weapon in question undercuts the overall platform of benevolence which the UFP is supposed to stand for anyhow. You just end up looking like the weaker dog, trying to bark as load, & you lose respect, a far more valuable commodity for an organization like theirs

Or, option B. You don't play into the game. You instead focus on your diplomatic channels, that bolster your alliances, alliances you have with some entities who already have that weapon as well, & could make it available to you, as needed... in your defense, like is done in both The Defector, & Unification.

Why do they really need cloaks, if they have the support of people who already have them, who will back them up, but also might become an enemy, if they began to see actions which are provocative. Going into the cloak business now (Literally being less transparent) is bad public relations, for a group who thrives on being an inclusive community, & the gain is not worth losing that, when there's alternatives, deterrents, & countermeasures which can be used, & developed.

The treaty happened long before the Klingons were allies.

The only way the treaty makes sense is if they had some kind of assurance that the Romulans wouldn’t just attack anyway. Maybe they had spies to let them know it was true. Section 31? Having the first attack in any engagement is a crushing advantage. Especially when The Chase establishes how easy it is to render a planet uninhabitable.

 

[Timo]

Having cloaks is the ultimate in first-strike advantages. If Algeron bans cloaks on both sides, then the Feds have just saved billions of lives and could well send a planetful of virgins to Remus for compensation.

On the other hand, promising the enemy "You will never see us operate invisible ships" is the cheapest deal you could possibly make...

The Romulan-Klingon treaty of the late 23rd century is a fan favorite, but ill founded in canon. Spock's words about Romulans using "ships of Klingon design" could mean pretty much anything - but in the context of ENT "United", our best bet probably is that it's a devious Romulan ruse, an attempt to frame the Klingons!

Where the cloaks came from is still unknown. There's no direct association between them and the ship that once belonged to T'Kumva's dad, other than this ship at one point getting equipped with the system. We don't know the origin of the ship, or its age - only the age of the corpses bolted onto it (and not their origin, either!). Knowing a bit more might mean being able to deduce a lot more: perhaps the origins of the ship would make it likelier for the cloak to be ancient tech, or likelier for it to be a recent invention by a Klingon faction that has been working on the material they got in ENT "Unexpected", or likelier for it to be stolen or traded from Romulans.

That Romulans would be the originators is probably the least likely option right now. They were never really credited as innovators; Klingons have come up with cooler stuff, and that gunsmith character of theirs in VOY "Endgame" might have been more a norm than an exception. It's quite possible the Romulans stole/bought the cloak from the Klingons because of the good publicity it got in Burnham's War...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

Below, I am describing an arms race.

The Romulans and Klingons have to divide their scientists in to two camps. Cloak Builders and cloak busters. The Cloak busters have to then divide into two groups again, a green team that busts enemy Cloaks, and a red Team that Busts their own cloaks and their own next generation cloaks to see if their current and next generation cloaks are worth while keeping or implementing, before the enemy figures out how to bust their cloaks how quickly.

That's a small pool of super-geniuses separated into three groups that can never again communicate or co-ordinate to improve the empire.

Then there's the Federation. No red team and no cloak builders, so all of their super geniuses in the field are working together collectively toward the same goal: Cloak busting.

The Federation is three times more efficient at busting cloaks than the Romulans and klingons are at building cloaks, and that is called winning.

 

[Mojochi]

The treaty happened long before the Klingons were allies.

Shit. I'd forgotten that

The only way the treaty makes sense is if they had some kind of assurance that the Romulans wouldn’t just attack anyway. Maybe they had spies to let them know it was true. Section 31? Having the first attack in any engagement is a crushing advantage. Especially when The Chase establishes how easy it is to render a planet uninhabitable.

Ok, so what you're saying makes sense to me now, but it still doesn't change the basic premise of it being in the UFP's best interest to remain transparent, from a geopolitical standpoint. They have dealings with many worlds with whom those relationships might be less trusting were they to decide to pursue a covert technology, especially as it applies to an arms race. It's just a very ugly posture for an organization who prides themselves & benefits from open relationships. You're still giving up quite an important thing to become invested in this... your whole identity of being a peaceful organization... really. As stated, the only real benefit to cloaked ships is as a 1st strike advantage. We pretty much hear them say consistently, that 1st strike is not how the UFP operates, so to have it, contradicts your basic edict

Below, I am describing an arms race.

The Romulans and Klingons have to divide their scientists in to two camps. Cloak Builders and cloak busters. The Cloak busters have to then divide into two groups again, a green team that busts enemy Cloaks, and a red Team that Busts their own cloaks and their own next generation cloaks to see if their current and next generation cloaks are worth while keeping or implementing, before the enemy figures out how to bust their cloaks how quickly.

That's a small pool of super-geniuses separated into three groups that can never again communicate or co-ordinate to improve the empire.

Then there's the Federation. No red team and no cloak builders, so all of their super geniuses in the field are working together collectively toward the same goal: Cloak busting.

The Federation is three times more efficient at busting cloaks than the Romulans and klingons are at building cloaks, and that is called winning.

^All of this for the win!

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Why would the Federation want the Treaty of Algeron? To maintain a ceasefire with the Romulan Empire and reinforce the boundaries and protocols surrounding the Neutral Zone, thus allowing peace in the quadrant. Giving up development in cloaking technology is a worthy sacrifice to make.

 

[Makarov]

Why not sweeten the deal and give up phasers & shield technology their peace will be even stronger

Remaining open is a good explanation for how it could benefit the federation, but to me it seems like not having any cloak technology puts them at a disadvantage not just with romulans but with every other race they run into that has it.

If one takes the viewpoint Picard should have used Hugh to destroy the borg, Sisko was right to do morally questionable things, etc.. then Pressman doesn't seem far off. They would still have their treaty and some cloaking development in secret. All Starfleet has to do is dig up some dirt on the Romulans and then they have an out if they were ever discovered.