"That Which Survives" at 50

[ZapBrannigan]

Did she actually name him?
Why would he do that? He had so many other (apparently) willing women? It makes me so angry.I'm not worried about the other executives but the victim. Yes its bad for them a bit but what else could she do in that era?

I didn't actually know this. Somehow it taints Star Trek for me. Anyway I'm going to have to think about it.

I thought she had when I wrote that, but I'm fuzzy on where I got it from and now realize she might not have. I apologize. It was a bad thing to be careless about. But the executive was finally either named or as-good-as-named by a credible source, probably Inside Star Trek. I can't check that book because I read a borrowed copy quite a few years ago.

In any case, please don't let this ruin Star Trek for you. A lot of good people made the show.

 

[Henoch]

probably Inside Star Trek

I don't think so, Zap. I just read that section in Inside Star Trek The Real Story. They danced around it.

 

[Pauln6]

I don't think so, Zap. I just read that section in Inside Star Trek The Real Story. They danced around it.

Some people have suggested that Grace implied the identity of her attacker when she states that she was given a polished stone as an apology of sorts just before they announced her contract would not be renewed but there is nothing definitive in her book beyond the fact that he was deceased by the time she went public.

I find it frustrating. In season one it's probable all the guest yeomen would have been Rand plus possibly you can see how she could have had a role in City on the Edge of Forever or This Side of Paradise. But it's hard to know what difference having Grace around might have made to the show from season two onwards. It's likely she would have had one focus episode per season. She would have been in Tribbles, maybe a Piece of the Action (based on her pre Trek work), The Deadly Years, the Tholian Web, Turnabout Intruder or perhaps some hand wringing on the bridge in shows like the Savage Curtain or pottering around in Wink of an Eye or By Any Other Name.

I think the issue is the more women you have, the more likely it is that they get to do something cool. Losira is one of the few women to just gets to be cool, unencumbered by the perceived weaknesses of her gender.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I don’t think she ever named him. It was part of her 12 step recovery that she’s would forgive and move on. If it was Roddenberry, she was past it enough to accept a role in TMP.

But without proof, I prefer to let it not tar him.

He’s got enough

 

[Pauln6]

I don’t think she ever named him. It was part of her 12 step recovery that she’s would forgive and move on. If it was Roddenberry, she was past it enough to accept a role in TMP.

But without proof, I prefer to let it not tar him.

He’s got enough

Yes. She was enthusiastic to return to Trek in Phase II, although as she hadn't given up booze by then, who knows how it may have affected her health. The stress of TMP because she upset Robert Wise and disliked how old she looked on film (as she had lost weight) apparently triggered another bout of drinking. She was certainly named in the early drafts of several Phase II scripts though. If she hadn't annoyed Wise, I wonder if he would have used her a bit more in TMP.

I do get frustrated that Trek boasts that a third of its crew is female but in landing parties of more than two (excluding episodes where everyone beams down) I think it's only Shore Leave, Gamesters of Triskelion, and Plato's Stepchildren that achieves this ratio or better and in the latter, only because the women are kidnapped.

Part of me would like to see a young Rand in Discovery to finally give her a proper chance. Who wouldn't love to see that beehive again?

 

[plynch]

A woman in showbiz, where women are judged on looks (even more than in the normal world) might just be being realistic, speaking of figure flaws, and still have an ok body image. Compare to, say, a pianist who is aware she or he is good, but still needs to improve in some areas. That Jack Kirby allusion above is very apt. Ms Meredith has some gravitas in this.

boy Shatner was sure mumbling through some lines by this point.

And, yes, Spock is overdone. They needed a story editor to bring his lines into line with how he usu. sounds, a bit less dorky-cold than in this ep.

 

[gratone]

One thing I've always wondered about this episode: the landing party is surprised when Kirk's phaser suddenly overloads. In this scene, Kirk is the only one with a phaser. What happened to Sulu's and McCoy's (and D'Amato's, which I'd assume they'd have taken)?

 

[MAGolding]

That's a great comparison, and also furthers "our" point as Spock and Kirk were very supportive in that episode.

Spock was just off, there's no other way to explain his dialogue, maybe when the ship was transported he was reassembled incorrectly.



Lee Meriwether has been great in everything I've seen her in, excellent here.

And Watkins! For once someone actually said something before they got killed.

James Doohan was also very good, not just repairing the ship but when Watkins was killed.


It always bothers me that the literal description of the damage the Losira construct does to the people makes me think all that should be left is a pile of mush.

Remember how McCoy behaved in "The Tholian Web"?

It is commonly believed that McCoy's worry over the missing Kirk made him act that way in "The Tholian Web". And the most obvious explanation Spock's behavior in "That Which Survives" is that he couldn't help being a little bit worried about Kirk, Sulu, McCoy, and D'Amato and so was slightly more harsh as a boss than he should have been. No science fiction explanations are needed for this.

 

[Qonundrum]

Spock was OTT at times, and for the laudable nature of the plot it getting ship and crew back together at the end is pinpoint miraculous perfection. As Henoch pointed out, the numeric values given allow a valid extrapolation of distance.

Sulu on the planet means a backup is shown, and Lt Rahda is the only person in TOS to portray someone from the South Asian (India) region. I recently found out that two different novels gave her a first name, each of which being different. And, yes, Spock did seem to go intl "prick mode" in dealing with her. And just about everyone else, though the scene where he calmly counts down the time to destruction with Scotty referring to him as "bloomin' cuckoo clock" makes up for it.

Nice to see Dr M'Benga again!

I hate final countdown scenes. In real life, the closer it is to that final digit means the less likely one is going to be able to escape unscathed. No damage at all from the engine overloading, too.

Season 3 had some great guest stars, but Lee Meriwether's performance was easily one of the best. So low-key yet menacing, subtle yet large. She as killer sells a hint of underlying sadness as eminently well as she does when stating her intention to kill of "I am for you". Her character is scripted to do only so much. But her acting adds so much nuance and depth that speaks out so much more. The episode pretty much hinges on Losira, thus making Lee's presence and depth making it that much more worldly, more... epic. she must have spent time reading and re-reading the script, she made Losira her own and making viewers wanting more.

Spock destroys the computer, which was thankfully the only thing in the room to logically deduce. Kirk laments that the only representative can no longer be talked to, as if prior attempts got them anywhere. Then she appears on screen with the sock-it-to-the-viewer exposition. It shouldn't work, but it does because the mystery was kept going and kept the viewer engaged. When we hear the fate of the Kalandans, it is genuinely moving and provides all that the episode needs to do.

That said, the fact they spent so much money on Losira's vanishing trick scared the bippy out of me when I first saw it and even despite CGI nowadays, it holds up well. I think the wailing incidental music also helps sell the effect and, having seen the episode again, the music also hides in plain sight (ear) the haunting tone accorded Losira's people.

Loved the platform used to simulate an earthquake. Was nicely done.

Had the rescue ship arrived, wouldn't the other Kalandans also end up infected with the disease that caused their civilization to die off? McCoy indicates they showed up and then spread it to everyone else (yiikes!) Yet the security system didn't recreate the image of any other Kalandans? It's a minor plot hole, ideally had the rescue ship not arrive there'd be hope for the species AND make it harder to debate the plot hole of why every security avatar looks like Losira, not that too many were complaining... either which way, it is a tragedy as a story. And one of the few times that there was no ending of optimism or hope, which makes it that much more palpable. The episode consciously made a choice to buck the trend, which wasn't done too often, and worked immensely well as a result. Other noteworthy examples of trend bucking are "The Paradise Syndrome" (very gruesome ending), and "Requiem for Methuselah" (more death, the robot love interest develops sentience and self-deactivates). I'd also include "All Our Yesterdays" except Mr Atoz does get to escape to where he wanted to go so it's bittersweet ending. The planet became a burnt pop tart, but he got to go back in time and live a simpler life. It's like a high concept fairy tale, and a really good one... Season 3 was a shake-up with the format, but it was done fairly well, and for all the stinker episodes it had there are a number that also deserve some praise.

Season 3 may have been lower in budget, but whoever calculated individual episode need seemed to know where to give the most money despite the circumstances.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Some people have suggested that Grace implied the identity of her attacker when she states that she was given a polished stone as an apology of sorts just before they announced her contract would not be renewed but there is nothing definitive in her book beyond the fact that he was deceased by the time she went public.

I thought the stone thing was damning, but upon reflection, it's theoretically possible that GR gave those stones to various people, and one of them re-gifted a stone to Whitney.

It's even possible that she was just waging a passive-aggressive battle against Roddenberry, enough to harm him among his associates for firing her, but never enough to be actionable in court or keep her out of the movies.

Her Wikipedia entry quotes her as saying:
"They wanted William Shatner to have romances in each episode with a different person, because for him to be stuck with one woman was not good for him and it wasn't good for the audience. That's what they told me, so I was written out. There were two blond girls and one black girl. Nichelle was a more important character and couldn't be written out. Everything's political in America. One of the blondes had to go. The other one was engaged to the boss, so guess who went? I just about killed myself. I drank, that's what we do, we drink to get rid of pain. I was really mad. My God, was I bitter."

I was wrong to ever be "certain" about what if anything happened.

 

[Marsden]

Remember how McCoy behaved in "The Tholian Web"?

It is commonly believed that McCoy's worry over the missing Kirk made him act that way in "The Tholian Web". And the most obvious explanation Spock's behavior in "That Which Survives" is that he couldn't help being a little bit worried about Kirk, Sulu, McCoy, and D'Amato and so was slightly more harsh as a boss than he should have been. No science fiction explanations are needed for this.

I thought the area of space that Dr. McCoy found a cure for was making him act like that. It mixes well with scotch!

 

[plynch]

Eve n with things and ppl close to me I find out I didn't really know what I knew. How can we know about something 53 years ago that's been deliberately hushed or even obfuscated, perhaps for good reasons? Peace to all involved.

though I'm glad to be maybe witnessing society finally insisting women be treated as human beings

 

[Phaser Two]

I was wrong to ever be "certain" about what if anything happened.

Well, one thing that's certain is that it's sad.

 

[Timo]

One thing I've always wondered about this episode: the landing party is surprised when Kirk's phaser suddenly overloads. In this scene, Kirk is the only one with a phaser. What happened to Sulu's and McCoy's (and D'Amato's, which I'd assume they'd have taken)?

I don't think McCoy ever packed heat in this episode; the team only had three Phaser Twos between themselves. Although everybody could of course have been carrying an extra Phaser One or a dozen.

Nobody carries an extra Phaser Two at any time, and indeed this would appear to be a bit of a burden to no gain, so presumably D'Amato's was left at the camp, such as there was one. Although it would also seem logical to assume D'Amato was actually disarmed by Losira, even if not quite so explosively; at the time the heroes find the body, they already also know there was a lifesign suddenly appearing and then disappearing, so they rightly suspect foul play and would not be amazed at D'Amato's gun going missing. Rather, I could see them expecting that.

What we are wondering is thus why Sulu's phaser would go missing, then. And Sulu, too, was confronted by Losira, and is missing his gun immediately thereafter. Robbery would sound like the obvious explanation again, then.

Perhaps Losira (or her planet) can steal guns that are not being held by the user. Kirk was holding his, so he had to be given special incentive to let go.

It is commonly believed that McCoy's worry over the missing Kirk made him act that way in "The Tholian Web". And the most obvious explanation Spock's behavior in "That Which Survives" is that he couldn't help being a little bit worried about Kirk, Sulu, McCoy, and D'Amato and so was slightly more harsh as a boss than he should have been. No science fiction explanations are needed for this.

Then again, Spock also got a bad bump in his head...

But Spock being a harsh boss? Whenever he gets to command without Kirk, he's an ass. Nobody feels comfortable with him, and he probably feels uncomfortable with everybody. We're just seeing Spock on a fairly normal doomsday, at his usual antics, on his regular mode.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[plynch]

Maybe he shouldn't be first officer.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Maybe he shouldn't be first officer.

He’s the best first officer in the fleet. So imagine the choices...

 

[johnnybear]

though I'm glad to be maybe witnessing society finally insisting women be treated as human beings

Some people have always treated women as human beings! I'd like to see everyone treated as human beings, rather than numbers on a card or as a badly treated labour force!
JB

 

[Pauln6]

Spock does seem particularly bitchy in this one. I felt as if the writers were trying to give the woman in a man's position undue criticism but in fairness, some of the season one helmsmen and navigators were given a hard time too.

Lee Meriweather has pretty respectable sci fi credentials. I wonder if she chose her roles carefully because she wanted out of the ordinary roles or just grabbed whatever roles came along.

 

[Poltargyst]

But Spock being a harsh boss? Whenever he gets to command without Kirk, he's an ass. Nobody feels comfortable with him, and he probably feels uncomfortable with everybody. We're just seeing Spock on a fairly normal doomsday, at his usual antics, on his regular mode.

Disagree that Spock is an ass WHENEVER he's in command without Kirk or that that is typical.

 

[UnknownSample]

Yes, Spock was just being himself. He's a remarkable and good man, but he's a Vulcan and sees things differently. Viewers shouldn't cheat themselves of a great three dimensional character, by requiring a warm, fuzzy Spock. From Spock's point of view, he was being fair and helpful.

I've decided they must have been thinking of the earliest civilizations with Losira's costume. Something about it says "Babylon" to me. I have no clue why I think I know this. I might be dredging up a decades old faint memory from history class?

I agree it's an un attractive costume, but I assume they thought it was attractive. Some guest star actresses look awful to me, yet are supposed to be alluring. In Catspaw, Antoinette Bower tries on preposterous "sexy" getups... They liked to pull women's hair back so tightly that it gave them skull heads...