Who is the better captain Picard or Jellico

[Gabriel]

This is where we fundamentally disagree. You think the Federation are idiots strategically because they're also good people. I think they're amazing because they're both not at all idiots strategically (what they compromised on cloak they gained equally elsewhere) and they're also good people.

I don’t think they are idiots but rather too willing to give up a lot just for peace. The cardassian treaty that gave away federation worlds away was not a very good thing. I mean there heart was in the right place by stopping the war but they didn’t have to inconvenience people.
Also there’s a saying: nice guys finish last.

 

[Arpy]

Also it doesn't make sense that the Treaty of Algeron is the only reason for cloaks not being a lot more prevalent because the Cardassians weren't a part of it (I don't think), yet they don't use cloaks either. Same with the Ferengi, Sheliak, Dominion, etc.

I don't think cloaks are all they're cracked up to be.

Consider also that the Tholians have their unique phasing web weapon that hasn't been adopted by other powers in the century it's been round, nor the Breen's energy-dampening weapon. Real world, it's because it'd be too confusing for everyone to use eighty-four different kinds of fake weapons, but I imagine in-universe there are reasons there too.

 

[Gabriel]

Also it doesn't make sense that the Treaty of Algeron is the only reason for cloaks not being a lot more prevalent because the Cardassians weren't a part of it (I don't think), yet they don't use cloaks either. Same with the Ferengi, Sheliak, Dominion, etc.

I don't think cloaks are all they're cracked up to be.

Consider also that the Tholians have their unique phasing web weapon that hasn't been adopted by other powers in the century it's been round, nor the Breen's energy-dampening weapon. Real world, it's because it'd be too confusing for everyone to use eighty-four different kinds of fake weapons, but I imagine in-universe there are reasons there too.

I don’t think the cloaks are fantastic etheir but they could be a good emergency thing or something.
You know I wonder why the people who made Star Trek always seem to dumb it down for the audience. I read about first drafts that were Shelved because they were to complicated. ( apparently in insurrection the enterprise crew was going to give worf condolences on jadzia’s death or something like that got rid of it because They didn’t want to confuse the movie viewers that weren’t watching DS9.) i mean I know that people don’t watch to just to analyze all the details or are hard trekkies (my mom is a Trekkie but I’m a much bigger one.) they just want to watch entertainment, but if I could I would have made them a little bit more elaborate. Just my opinion though.

 

[Arpy]

I don’t think they are idiots but rather too willing to give up a lot just for peace.

I think both sides gave up a lot, and I imagine there are those on both sides who love to say that it was too much. That's easy to do.

But you have me wondering: the only reason the Federation too would need the cloak would be to maintain the peace that they were now getting through the treaty. The way you phrased it, it seems like you place little value on peace, meaning that war (and the deaths of the billions that that would mean) is preferable to gain the cloak. You already lost me there.

But then further, to what end would we need the cloak after winning it? (That is, if we even win the war. We could all die completely. Romulans have been known to not take prisoners, and if we're so awful, why should they let us live?) But say we kill billions and lose billions, and now our GDP is half what it was before the war. What do we do with the cloak now? Cruise around all invisible? Or do we use it in even more wars for imperial reasons...just like the Romulans used to?

The cardassian treaty that gave away federation worlds away was not a very good thing. I mean there heart was in the right place by stopping the war but they didn’t have to inconvenience people.

Pardon my Klingonese, but fuck people's convenience. There's a hierarchy of needs people need to be happy, and the remaining alive part is #1. That's why it's "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," in that order.

The colonists knew they might have to leave before they ever settled and were offered new places to settle. That's more than most get. To avert a war that would have cost more than their entire populations combined, a little "inconveniencing" was a steal. Plus we got a shit ton of planets from the Cardassian side. So it's not like they were happy about it either.

Also there’s a saying: nice guys finish last.

Yeah, I know it, and it's also wrong. The fastest runner wins the race because he's the fastest runner, not because he also beats his wife and never says thank you.

 

[Gabriel]

Yeah, I know it, and it's also wrong.

To you. I don’t mean the wife beaters win. I mean the pushovers. The guy that allows everyone to cut in front of him. The guy that are so easy to manipulate. The guy you can get to do just an anything and get them to sign stupid things. Their the ones who finish last. The federation sometimes acts like this. And i will agree that the displaced colonists are crybabies. And I did not mean to place the cloak above lives however it could have been a nice part of defense. Maybe not a necessary one but a nice little part.
And you know what why don’t we just agree to disagree. we both know I won’t change your mind much and you won’t change mine much. I respect jellico and you don’t, and are thoughts on if the federation operates smartly are different. But you know what it’s just entertainment. No point in continuous arguing over a point that isn’t even real life. Although I think we can both agree that chain of command need a little improvements. But then again perfect can be boring.

 

[NigellaDeanna20]

no question for me, picard. Picard already had the complete trust and support of his crew (as evident by the events of BOTBW. Jellico, nothing against the guy, pretty antagonised all of the senior staff. He also came across as a little bit arrogant and the biggest mistake he made in my opinion, was to fall out with Riker which, in my estimatation is a big no-no.

 

[Gabriel]

no question for me, picard. Picard already had the complete trust and support of his crew (as evident by the events of BOTBW. Jellico, nothing against the guy, pretty antagonised all of the senior staff. He also came across as a little bit arrogant and the biggest mistake he made in my opinion, was to fall out with Riker which, in my estimatation is a big no-no.

Yeah jellico does have that problem. (Although Riker can be a little arrogant too) And he should have worked on it better. I should have asked if jellico was a good captain instead of comparing the two.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think it could be argued that Jellico was partly using the "danger" factor as an excuse.

Contrast the following dialogue:

PICARD: It may be dangerous to take the ship in.
O'BRIEN: Take the ship in where, sir?
PICARD: Into the anomaly, Chief. Lay in a course for the exact centre and transfer all available power to the shields.
TASHA: Sir? Can you give us some explanation?
PICARD: No, Lieutenant, I cannot.
TASHA: Captain, so far we've obeyed every order, no matter how far fetched it might have seemed. But if we're to risk the safety of the ship and crew I think we have to ask you for an explanation.
PICARD: I understand your concerns, Lieutenant, and I know if I were in your position I would be doing the same thing. Looking for answers. But you're not going to find any because I don't have any to give you. I know it is difficult for you to understand, but we have to take the ship into the very centre of the phenomenon and create a static warp shell. Now, this will put the ship at risk. Quite frankly, we may not survive. But I want you to believe that I am doing this for a greater purpose, and that what is at stake here is more than any of you can possibly imagine. I know you have your doubts about me, about each other, about the ship. All I can say is that although we have only been together for a short time, I know that you are the finest crew in the fleet and I would trust each of you with my life. So, I am asking you for a leap of faith, and to trust me.


TROI: I'd be happy to. But first, I'd like to talk about how the change in command is affecting the crew.
JELLICO: I've noticed some resistance.
TROI: I wouldn't call it resistance. More like uncertainty. Most of them had served under Captain Picard for several years. They knew him, they knew what he expected. Now they're being asked to adjust to a new captain and a new way of doing things, and they're uncertain how to react.
JELLICO: I see your point. This all could be very unsettling to them.
TROI: And to you. Perhaps everyone just needs some time. Time for you to get to know and trust the crew, and time for them to understand how you want things done.
JELLICO: I'm glad you brought this to my attention, Deanna. Unfortunately, I don't have time for a honeymoon with the crew. You've clearly given this a lot of thought, so I'd like you to take charge of the morale situation. Please see to it that they make the adjustment to the new routine quickly and easily. I have a meeting with the new Security Chief in five minutes, so the duty roster will have to wait. Thank you, Counsellor. By the way. I prefer a certain formality on the Bridge. I'd appreciate it if you wore standard uniform when you're on duty.
TROI: Of course, sir.


Picard has only moments to avoid the destruction of humanity, but takes the time to get the (bridge) crew on board, Jellico has at least a day before any real prospect of danger but claims he "doesn't have time", this suggests to me that he may be well suited to a role at Starfleet Tactical (he and Shelby would either get on very well or kill each other) or Intelligence, but he's a poor leader in extremis (ie when good leadership is most needed) so an inferior starship commander.

 

[Noname Given]

no question for me, picard. Picard already had the complete trust and support of his crew (as evident by the events of BOTBW. Jellico, nothing against the guy, pretty antagonised all of the senior staff. He also came across as a little bit arrogant and the biggest mistake he made in my opinion, was to fall out with Riker which, in my estimatation is a big no-no.

To be fair though we (the Audience) only saw Jellico once - going up against an enemy he had a bad history with.

My point? How would you feel about Picard if you ONLY saw him as he was portrayed in the feature film "Star Trek: First Contact" and that was all you had to go on regarding him?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I think it could be argued that Jellico was partly using the "danger" factor as an excuse.

Contrast the following dialogue:

PICARD: It may be dangerous to take the ship in.
O'BRIEN: Take the ship in where, sir?
PICARD: Into the anomaly, Chief. Lay in a course for the exact centre and transfer all available power to the shields.
TASHA: Sir? Can you give us some explanation?
PICARD: No, Lieutenant, I cannot.
TASHA: Captain, so far we've obeyed every order, no matter how far fetched it might have seemed. But if we're to risk the safety of the ship and crew I think we have to ask you for an explanation.
PICARD: I understand your concerns, Lieutenant, and I know if I were in your position I would be doing the same thing. Looking for answers. But you're not going to find any because I don't have any to give you. I know it is difficult for you to understand, but we have to take the ship into the very centre of the phenomenon and create a static warp shell. Now, this will put the ship at risk. Quite frankly, we may not survive. But I want you to believe that I am doing this for a greater purpose, and that what is at stake here is more than any of you can possibly imagine. I know you have your doubts about me, about each other, about the ship. All I can say is that although we have only been together for a short time, I know that you are the finest crew in the fleet and I would trust each of you with my life. So, I am asking you for a leap of faith, and to trust me.


TROI: I'd be happy to. But first, I'd like to talk about how the change in command is affecting the crew.
JELLICO: I've noticed some resistance.
TROI: I wouldn't call it resistance. More like uncertainty. Most of them had served under Captain Picard for several years. They knew him, they knew what he expected. Now they're being asked to adjust to a new captain and a new way of doing things, and they're uncertain how to react.
JELLICO: I see your point. This all could be very unsettling to them.
TROI: And to you. Perhaps everyone just needs some time. Time for you to get to know and trust the crew, and time for them to understand how you want things done.
JELLICO: I'm glad you brought this to my attention, Deanna. Unfortunately, I don't have time for a honeymoon with the crew. You've clearly given this a lot of thought, so I'd like you to take charge of the morale situation. Please see to it that they make the adjustment to the new routine quickly and easily. I have a meeting with the new Security Chief in five minutes, so the duty roster will have to wait. Thank you, Counsellor. By the way. I prefer a certain formality on the Bridge. I'd appreciate it if you wore standard uniform when you're on duty.
TROI: Of course, sir.


Picard has only moments to avoid the destruction of humanity, but takes the time to get the (bridge) crew on board, Jellico has at least a day before any real prospect of danger but claims he "doesn't have time", this suggests to me that he may be well suited to a role at Starfleet Tactical (he and Shelby would either get on very well or kill each other) or Intelligence, but he's a poor leader in extremis (ie when good leadership is most needed) so an inferior starship commander.

That comparison might work had you not omitted all the stuff that came before in All Good Things: Picard was calling out random emergencies, disobeying Starfleet orders, and seemingly having dissociative episodes. The crew was already giving Picard the benefit of the doubt for behavior that was far more questionable than Jellico's. And let's not forget, Riker and Troi were prepared to clash with Jellico before he beamed on board, and in the end, he was following Starfleet's orders.

The problem with the comparison then comes down to the fact that the intentions in writing were different. We weren't going to have twenty minutes of a power struggle in the middle of All Good Things, whereas they wanted to explore how changes in leadership affected people in Chain of Command.

 

[Arpy]

That comparison might work had you not omitted all the stuff that came before in All Good Things: Picard was calling out random emergencies, disobeying Starfleet orders, and seemingly having dissociative episodes. The crew was already giving Picard the benefit of the doubt for behavior that was far more questionable than Jellico's. And let's not forget, Riker and Troi were prepared to clash with Jellico before he beamed on board, and in the end, he was following Starfleet's orders.

The problem with the comparison then comes down to the fact that the intentions in writing were different. We weren't going to have twenty minutes of a power struggle in the middle of All Good Things, whereas they wanted to explore how changes in leadership affected people in Chain of Command.

Maybe, but don’t miss the point because a few things were different.

Also, Picard was strange in his orders but he wasn’t actively antagonistic while giving them. It’s that bit extra that makes Jellico problematic.

Also, his orders were by and large carried out unlike Picard’s in AGT when he had to make his case before being mutineed — which he did successfully.

 

[Arpy]

To be fair though we (the Audience) only saw Jellico once - going up against an enemy he had a bad history with.

My point? How would you feel about Picard if you ONLY saw him as he was portrayed in the feature film "Star Trek: First Contact" and that was all you had to go on regarding him?

You’d think he needed to set up an appointment with Troi, which might have helped Jellico too. But you’d note what Lily said about the crew having faith in their captain whose orders typically make sense. He earned their respect and loyalty, regardless what was going on atm. Jellico strikes me as someone the crew wouldn’t go that extra bit for, and, again, that’s a problem that he causes. You could tell Picard was being effected by the situation but with Jellico, it was just his standard operating procedure.

Also, Picard heeded Lily’s personal criticism. He didn’t suck it up like Jellico did going to Riker for professional reasons (he needed Riker specifically if his plan was to work) and, again, to Jellico’s credit, he did suck it up. But I have less faith in Jellico were he in Picard's place in FC that he’d let go of his deepest hurt on the non-professional opinion of some 21st C primitive that he maybe would be better served not being such an ass. Maybe, but less certain.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Maybe, but don’t miss the point because a few things were different.

Also, Picard was strange in his orders but he wasn’t actively antagonistic while giving them. It’s that bit extra that makes Jellico problematic.

Also, his orders were by and large carried out unlike Picard’s in AGT when he had to make his case before being mutineed — which he did successfully.

Antagonistic? Jellico was often brusque and, arguably, discourteous, but the only person to whom he showed hostility was Lemec. Conversely, when questioning what would happen to Picard, it was Riker who kept escalating the situation, and when Troi intervened, she called out his name first, surprised at Riker's behavior. And if I wanted to make something out of nothing, I would note that after Riker was relieved of his post, the tensions start to disappear, and the crew gets to work.

 

[Arpy]

Antagonistic? Jellico was often brusque and, arguably, discourteous, but the only person to whom he showed hostility was Lemec.

As I wrote upthread:

“The crew is maybe the finest in the fleet, yet he had the hardest time with them. When Riker tells him at the end he’s arrogant, closed-minded, needs to control everything and everyone, and doesn’t provide an atmosphere of trust or to inspire his crew to do their best, that’s significant. That’s what the character was about.”

His personality was adding to their problems instead of being a good leader and subtracting from them.

And if I wanted to make something out of nothing, I would note that after Riker was relieved of his post, the tensions start to disappear, and the crew gets to work.

Or tensions are higher than ever and he’s closer to mutiny?

Also he just lost one of the best first officers in the fleet, who three times was offered his own ship and eventually captained one...and after that became an admiral. Would others have left after the mission was over? Was Data ready to be first officer or was it just that Jellico needed a yes man as his lieutenant? How would that dynamic work when they’re up against Q next week?

We saw Jellico at his best with the Cardassians. They’re who he was an expert in. But how would he have fared against other enemies he was less interested in, or in situations in which his issues might not be dealt with as well as his crew were forced to?

 

[Noname Given]

You’d think he needed to set up an appointment with Troi, which might have helped Jellico too. But you’d note what Lily said about the crew having faith in their captain whose orders typically make sense. He earned their respect and loyalty, regardless what was going on atm. Jellico strikes me as someone the crew wouldn’t go that extra bit for, and, again, that’s a problem that he causes. You could tell Picard was being effected by the situation but with Jellico, it was just his standard operating procedure.

Also, Picard heeded Lily’s personal criticism. He didn’t suck it up like Jellico did going to Riker for professional reasons (he needed Riker specifically if his plan was to work) and, again, to Jellico’s credit, he did suck it up. But I have less faith in Jellico were he in Picard's place in FC that he’d let go of his deepest hurt on the non-professional opinion of some 21st C primitive that he maybe would be better served not being such an ass. Maybe, but less certain.

To also be fair, said crew (including Riker) nevber gave Jellico a chance.

The FIRST THING Jellico gave an order to change (the shift rotation from 3 shifts to 4 shifts); Riker came back with a Corporate style excuse -- he couldn't or wouldn't even carry out a relatively simple first ordwer because hey, staff told him it was effectively inconvenient to do so.

I do enjoy Picard's reaction to Riker telling Jellico this at the Transfer Cerimony because Hell, EVEN PICARD gave his a: "WTF??!!" kind of look; and even Picard probably thought (maybe I've coddled this crew a bit too much.)

It's chain of command. You don't follow an order because you likeor dislike the Captain; you follow it because the Captain's got the job, or you're no good.

IMO - In the TNG "Chain Of Command" episodes, it WASN'T Jellico who came off as unprofessional - it was Riker (again, the man couldn't even follow through on a simple housekeeping style first order) and Geordi - "OMG! He pulled an inspection during a maintenance cycle when main engineering looked a mess..." - PLUS, "...his changes...(they WE'RE heading into what could become a War Zone)...mean we'll have to shut down some Science labs...Riker, can you please talk to Picard?...WAAAAH!"

I at least give the writers credit that they didn't turn Riker into a total douche in that when he went to Picard and saw what Picard was going through to prep for the mission, Riker walked out without saying a word - and FINALLY realized, he had a new/different Captain, and perhaps he should start being said new Captain's First Officer.

Jellico said to Troi point blank: "I don't have timer for a Honeymoon with the crew..." (Yes, he was a hard ass, but he was thrown into a situation where even the Admiral made the point..."Time is of the essence..."

Jellico isn't Picard, yes, but again, perhaps if it wasn't such a tense/fast situation; under normal circumstances he may have been a bit more of: "Okay, maybe I can let this crew ease into my style of Command..." <--- But that wasn't the situation he was given.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

As I wrote upthread:

“The crew is maybe the finest in the fleet, yet he had the hardest time with them. When Riker tells him at the end he’s arrogant, closed-minded, needs to control everything and everyone, and doesn’t provide an atmosphere of trust or to inspire his crew to do their best, that’s significant. That’s what the character was about.”

His personality was adding to their problems instead of being a good leader and subtracting from them.

However, that does not fit the definition of antagonism.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Was Data ready to be first officer or was it just that Jellico needed a yes man as his lieutenant?

I think the episodes make it clear that was the only kind of first officer he was interested in having, in contrast to Picard who specifically didn't want one. Which is to Picard's credit, not Jellico's.

 

[Makarov]

I do enjoy Picard's reaction to Riker telling Jellico this at the Transfer Cerimony because Hell, EVEN PICARD gave his a: "WTF??!!" kind of look; and even Picard probably thought (maybe I've coddled this crew a bit too much.)

To me it seems more of a "man this is awkward, the new captain is flipping out over minor stuff" look and then he has to lecture Jellico that he's already wrong in his judgement of Riker

RIKER:As a matter of fact, I'd like you to continue to keep me on my toes.
SHELBY: Some might define that as the role of a first officer.

Jellico falls into the other category.. actually if he were in BOBW it would have gone like this :

JELLICO: I don't like you. I think you're insubordinate, arrogant. willful.
SHELBY: Some might define that as the role of a first officer.

One thing that gets me about about the whole debate is man doesn't anybody trust Geordi? If he thinks an engineering order is unreasonable then it probably is to some degree.

 

[Discofan]

Picard seemed pleased when Worf's bro. Kurn brought some discipline on board...

Remember Kurn's remark that made me laugh the first time I heard it: " I find the constraints a bit difficult to conform to. Just a short while ago, I had to stop myself from killing Commander Riker."

I am sure Jellico would sympathize with that sentiment.

I am sure under other circumstances Picard would have been equally pleased with Jellico's style of command.

 

[Noname Given]

To me it seems more of a "man this is awkward, the new captain is flipping out over minor stuff" look and then he has to lecture Jellico that he's already wrong in his judgement of Riker.

Picard's response to Jellico was hardly what I would call a lecture. It was like he was pleading: "No, really, he's a good first officer..."; and honestly, it more looked like he was embarrassed for BOTH himself AND Riker at that point because Picard for all his self-righteousness UNDERSTANDS you follow the chain of command; and that Jellico's first request WAS NOT AT ALL out of line.

The writers screwed Riker's character over by having him openly pass up THREE offers to Captain a ship (the first was mentioned in TNG S1 - "The Arsenal Of Freedom"; then in TNG S2 - "The Icarus Factor", then in S3 - "The Best of Both Worlds") -- and hell, I'd say he passed up,a fourth offer off screen once Star Fleet had the rebuilt fleet a year or so after BoBW.
^^^
So, yeah, Riker didn't come across as a particularly 'good' Exec. by the time TNG S6 - "Chain Of Command" rolled around.