Why did the hull stay mostly intact after the explosion?
Star Trek III Self Destruct
- Thread starter Pauln6
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That doesn't make much sense either, based on what we see.
There's only two ways a ship can self-destruct: A warp core breach, or by explosives. Since the warp core didn't explode, let's just say that in this particular case, the self-destruct was specifically for the explosive charges. Then that would mean that the charges were intentionally placed in the bridge and at least 1/4 of the saucer section.
Let's think about that for a second. There might be some reason why the bridge needs to be destroyed, but it certainly wouldn't be because the ship couldn't fly without it. The ship can fly by auxiliary control, and even if it couldn't, the ship could be towed. And if the computer core is on the bridge, then destroying it would make some sense, but it would make more sense to just have a data wiping program erase the files.
But the saucer? Why on Earth would explosive charges be placed in the one area where a) there's just crew quarters, and b) the part of the ship that could be detached and serve as a lifeboat if the stardrive section were to be compromised?
So let's say that the Genesis planet wasn't there, and the ship blew up the way it did.
1. Kirk and company would have had nowhere to beam to except the Bird of Prey.
2. The bridge and 1/4 of the Enterprise would have blown up, but the rest of the ship would still be intact but dead in space.
I suppose Kirk and the rest could have overpowered Kruge and whoever was left and steal the BoP, but that still doesn't answer the question as to why explosive charges were put in the saucer and bridge when they didn't actually self-destruct the ship, or why they were in those locations in the first place.
The containment field would have failed whether the secondary hull made it down to the surface intact or burned up in the atmosphere.
Most likely. And yet the planet wasn't vaporized because of it. So either the core was ejected before the ship entered the atmosphere (and there were no visuals indicating this), or the matter/antimatter explosion was nowhere near as powerful as it has historically been made out to be.
Without proper containment to maximize the explosion, M/AM sort of fizzes a lot, but no explosion. It's like black powder. Ignited in an open pan, flash. Detonated in an enclosed container, boom. Example, the AM in the spherical bottle in Obsession was designed to be a bomb. It had a magnetic containment field plus other features (spheric shaped casing, multiple implosive detonators, etc.) to maximize the boom. Also, planets give atmospheric overpressure which we don't get in space.
The closest thing we see to a M/AM explosion in space is when Nomad blows up. (probably wasn't M/AM, but you get the point.)
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Without proper containment to maximize the explosion, M/AM sort of fizzes a lot, but no explosion. It's like black powder. Ignited in an open pan, flash. Detonated in an enclosed container, boom. Example, the AM in the spherical bottle in Obsession was designed to be a bomb. It had a magnetic containment field plus other features (spheric shaped casing, etc.) to maximize the boom. Also, planets give atmospheric overpressure which we don't get in space.
The closest thing we see to a M/AM explosion in space is when Nomad blows up. (probably wasn't M/AM, but you get the point.
Matter and anti-matter Annihilate each other when they come into contact. Magnetic failure in space isn't so bad presumably as your navigational deflector is supposed to repel stray anti-matter particles left over from previous explosions. It's assumed that it's the dilithium reaction that boosts the energy output somehow. Maybe this is why a core breach is so powerful.
I would have thought that blowing up the warp core and all your stored anti-matter in one hit must be pretty devastating. Doing it in space though, would it only be the matter of the ship that the anti-matter could react with? Would most of it be dispersed otherwise?
Surely there would always be an excess of matter in such cases? That is, the fuel of the ship wouldn't outmass or outbulk the ship herself.
But core ejectors exist for a reason. We don't know the reason, but we can deduce it's not to prevent the crew from dying horribly in an explosion, because that never works. So we might decide it's to prevent the explosion from being catastrophically big, and taking with it nearby planets or fellow starships. An ejected core and an ejected antimatter tank help a lot with limiting the blast, but the very act of ejecting will usually release enough of the stuff to blow up the ship anyway.
Oh, I'm sure there are a zillion ways to choose from. Ramming a star, slagging the important working bits with short-circuits, releasing internal contaminants... A whole range of options for every occasion.
And no doubt in a zillion other places, too. Again for the ability to choose.
Choosing these particular ones would serve Kirk's purposes the best: he'd be rid of the Klingon boarding party, which was his only motivation for blowing up the ship in the first place, and he'd achieve that with minimum fuss.
Why? If there wasn't a planet around, Kirk wouldn't have blown up the ship. He wanted the Klingons dead without having to die himself. The scuttling charges were his only remaining weapon of mass destruction. So he needed to beam away to some sort of safety, and the nearby Klingon ship was not it.
Timo Saloniemi
But core ejectors exist for a reason. We don't know the reason, but we can deduce it's not to prevent the crew from dying horribly in an explosion, because that never works. So we might decide it's to prevent the explosion from being catastrophically big, and taking with it nearby planets or fellow starships. An ejected core and an ejected antimatter tank help a lot with limiting the blast, but the very act of ejecting will usually release enough of the stuff to blow up the ship anyway.
Oh, I'm sure there are a zillion ways to choose from. Ramming a star, slagging the important working bits with short-circuits, releasing internal contaminants... A whole range of options for every occasion.
And no doubt in a zillion other places, too. Again for the ability to choose.
Choosing these particular ones would serve Kirk's purposes the best: he'd be rid of the Klingon boarding party, which was his only motivation for blowing up the ship in the first place, and he'd achieve that with minimum fuss.
Why? If there wasn't a planet around, Kirk wouldn't have blown up the ship. He wanted the Klingons dead without having to die himself. The scuttling charges were his only remaining weapon of mass destruction. So he needed to beam away to some sort of safety, and the nearby Klingon ship was not it.
Timo Saloniemi
I was talking about ways that the ship can self destruct that is programmed into the ship’s computer. This whole topic was about the destruct sequence.
Except there was no indication in the film that the self destruct did not work as intended.
Then one would think that there would have been a way to only destroy or eject the bridge, not half the saucer along with it.
Why not? Kruge and Maltz seemed to be the only ones left on the BoP. The whole point of them beaming away at the same time that the Klingons beamed over was to hide the fact that they were beaming off the ship at all. If they could beam over to the enemy ship, five men could easily overpower two Klingons that weren’t expecting them. Which is exactly what happened with Maltz later in the movie.
Actually, it would have made way more sense to beam over the the BoP instead of down to the planet. But obviously that wasn’t the story they were trying to tell.
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Timo hit on what we saw. Kirk used the "scuttling charges" to "sink" the ship. It was a planned destruction sequence to be used in orbit of a planet. The charges were designed to destroy key systems and force a fiery reentry into a planet to deny the enemy from getting their hands on any useful technology or to parade its destroy hulk back to Klingon space as a trophy.
Kirk had no idea where all of the Klingons would be at any moment, and whether all the Klingons went to the bridge together would be only speculation. Even if he guessed correctly and got them all, then Kruge would still have the mostly intact Enterprise as a prize.
Kirk went down to the planet to save Saavik and Spock; if Kirk attacked the BoP, Kruge would order their execution. Kirk had no idea how many Klingon were still aboard the BoP, plus, would his old team of geriatrics really be a match against prime Klingon warriors? When Kirk tricked his way up to the BoP, first, he was in very desperate position, second, he just killed their leader Kruge, and lastly, only he was at risk in battle and he had the element of surprise with his crew already (safely?) on the BoP.
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Kirk went down the planet to save Saavik and Spock, but there was no guarantee they’d all be able to leave the planet before it was destroyed. By sneaking aboard the BoP and taking out Kruge and Maltz, they’d at least have a way to get out of there. And their age was irrelevant. They had both the element of surprise and phasers on their side.
A possible strategy that Kirk did not choose for some reason, rather he chose the other plan.
Considering how much he sacrificed in Trek III I'd say he was entitled to one lucky break.
That didn't piss off Trekkies. Having the Enterprise underwater in Into Darkness like some sort of swiss-army-knife anime mecha. THAT pissed off Trekkies.
I’m pretty sure I can count on one hand the number of Trekkies that were pissed off at that scene.
I agree with Dukhat: How are a bunch of forty-somethings to fifty-somethings geriatric? Most people of that age, even today, are considered to be in their prime. Kirk just felt old.
You obviously don't hang out with the right crowd, then.
Okay, not geriatric, but none were in their prime, anymore, especially against and out-numbered by prime Klingon warriors. Kirk and Sulu were probably their best fighters. Uhura and Chekov were only so-so based on Gamesters. Spock was out of commission, Scotty had slowed down a lot, and McCoy was suffering from the katra-thing but even during TOS he was worthless in a fight. Search for Spock was filmed in mid-late 1983 (released in June 1984). This does not look like a team in its physical prime:
Shatner 52 (but his character was ~50)
Kelley 64
Doohan 64
Nichols 50
Takei 46
Koenig 47 (but is character was ~38)
Nimoy 52
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