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Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

The eye sensitivity thing is a real head scratcher. Surprisingly at this point that has to be even worse than the Klingon redesign for me.
Yeah, that whole plot-point was just a total “Whaaaa...??” from me when it was revealed, since even the ENT two-parter seemed to take great pains to replicate the full-on 1960s Constitution-class bridge set-lighting, and absolutely none of the Mirror Universe characters in those episodes seemed to even be remotely bothered by the Prime Universe lighting aboard the starship, or ordered it altered in any way due to physical discomfort.
 
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Discovery's internal continuity is fairly sound. It's only their insistence that it's part of the greater Trek continuity that makes everything from Spore Drives to Klingon foreheads to Mirror Universe eye sensitivity a joke.

That's the issue I'm having at the moment with Discovery. I can watch it on it's own merits and I even like it. But when I try to put it in the greater continuity of the rest of Star Trek it's like force fitting a puzzle piece that doesn't belong. It's not that there haven't been discontinuities in the past. Any one of us can point to something and say, yep, that's an inconsistency. It's not perfect. But when you look at it from the greater whole, Enterprise-to-Nemesis has a reasonable flow to it. Discovery is like a boulder in that flow that disrupts everything around it. It doesn't make me hate it, but I do hate trying to think of it as part of the greater whole right now.
 
That's the issue I'm having at the moment with Discovery. I can watch it on it's own merits and I even like it. But when I try to put it in the greater continuity of the rest of Star Trek it's like force fitting a puzzle piece that doesn't belong.

Like I keep saying, there have been people who said that about every new incarnation of Trek. Hell, it took years for many TOS fans (and cast members!) to come around to accepting TNG as a legitimate sequel. And people had pretty much the exact same complaints about Enterprise 17-18 years ago that they have about Discovery today, that it was too hard to fit it into their mental image of Trek history because it differed from what they'd assumed. The flow from one incarnation to another has never been smooth or effortless. It's just that over time, fans and tie-in authors come up with rationalizations for smoothing over the inconsistencies, creating the perception of a continuous flow where there wasn't one originally. Eventually, people just get used to things.
 
Like I keep saying, there have been people who said that about every new incarnation of Trek. Hell, it took years for many TOS fans (and cast members!) to come around to accepting TNG as a legitimate sequel. And people had pretty much the exact same complaints about Enterprise 17-18 years ago that they have about Discovery today, that it was too hard to fit it into their mental image of Trek history because it differed from what they'd assumed. The flow from one incarnation to another has never been smooth or effortless. It's just that over time, fans and tie-in authors come up with rationalizations for smoothing over the inconsistencies, creating the perception of a continuous flow where there wasn't one originally. Eventually, people just get used to things.

Don't worry, I'm still keeping an open mind. Thinking of it as a reboot for now just gets me through for the moment. I may yet come around.
 
To be honest, part of the reason I'm so blase about the inconsistencies is that I've spent decades being frustrated at the inconsistencies between different versions of Trek, and often within a single version (like TNG retconning Data to be emotionless at the start of season 3, and changing his emotion chip to "permanently fused" in GEN to casually removable in INS). I'm not crazy about the continuity issues with DSC, no, but they're par for the course when it comes to Trek.

This is why I enjoy writing original fiction -- because I can keep each of my universes as unified and internally consistent as I want. (Well, except when I have to retcon something I've retroactively realized was a mistake or a bad idea, although I've only had to do that with my first published story and with a few lines here and there in my Hub stories.) But it's a lot easier for a single person working alone to keep their universe consistent than it is for dozens of writers working separately across decades.
 
Except they haven't shown us a single thing to indicate Janeway wouldn't risk using it just once to get her crew home. To indicate that the Starfleet who were willing to commit genocide in order to win the Dominion War wouldn't risk it (or willingly sacrifice officers) in order to get vital strikes in behind enemy lines.
To be fair, this seems like precisely the sort of thing that tie-ins could eventually address with stories set during the early seasons of Voyager and the Dominion War, respectively...

You know, it's in times like these that I wish there were a tie-in series devoted specifically to Starfleet characters tackling such engineering issues. ;)

It was never expected in the 60's that fans would rewatch Star Trek episodes. Now we're expected to binge watch shows on Netflix and the like in a few afternoons. Rewatching our favourite shows over and over is part of geek culture.
This is definitely something which has heightened expectations of consistent continuity across the board when it comes to serialised shows--it's much more noticeable that Episode 2 contradicts Episode 10 when you're watching them on the same day (which is very common now) than when you were watching them at least two months apart, or when there was no guarantee you'd be able to watch both of the episodes in question.
 
As I like to put it, continuity is virtue, but it's not the only virtue or even the most important one. And, at the risk of channeling my inner curmudgeon, the whole "canon" thing has turned into some kinda weird fundamentalist obsession that is rapidly becoming more trouble than its worth.

Remember when we just watched these shows for fun?
 
To take great pains to replicate the full-on 1960s Constitution-class bridge set-lighting

I have to disagree, the lighting is pretty dim compared to TOS. Look how dark the walls are in these shots. The Mirror NX-01 sets were also darker than normal as well. Trek core has screen caps of both episodes if you want more shots.


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It's obvious the new Picard series is going to wipe out the interconnected Treklit canon that started in 2001 with DS9's Avatar.

Who will you be sorry to see go? Who are you glad to see wiped out and blown into dust?

Sorry to see go:
New deep space nine?

Happy to see go:
T'Ryssa Pixie Dream Girl Chen
President Nan "I'm so witty and hip" Bacco
The plot fix aliens who wiped out the Borg and made Erika Hernandez a god
Vedek Kira
Section 31's destruction.
Gell "I'm just as hip and witty as Bacco" Kamenor
Obsession with showing me the Tzenkethi all of the time. (No one cares about them Una)
the Breen.. oh god David Mack, the Breen nonsense, wipe it out all of it. Wolf snouts and gas beings all of it!


I am continually amazed at the controversy this sort of thing generates among fans of the novels. Any time a new series, movie-- or heck any given episode of any series really-- is released, it wipes out some novel, comic, story, or important aspect from the wider "beta" canon.

I would think fans of the "expanded universe" would be used to this by now, and there would be a well-worn resonse already developed, whether that's logistically (in deciding which stories you still consider canon, and which get wiped) or emotionally (in dealing with any disappointment).
 
I am continually amazed at the controversy this sort of thing generates among fans of the novels. Any time a new series, movie-- or heck any given episode of any series really-- is released, it wipes out some novel, comic, story, or important aspect from the wider "beta" canon.

I would think fans of the "expanded universe" would be used to this by now, and there would be a well-worn resonse already developed, whether that's logistically (in deciding which stories you still consider canon, and which get wiped) or emotionally (in dealing with any disappointment).

Star Trek books, at ones set least post Voyager have basically had an uninterrupted timeline since Voyager ended.
This will essentially be the biggest change to the TNG Era Book Canon since 2002.

So no, really nothing has been wiped in a long while.
 
I would think fans of the "expanded universe" would be used to this by now, and there would be a well-worn resonse already developed, whether that's logistically (in deciding which stories you still consider canon, and which get wiped) or emotionally (in dealing with any disappointment).

Star Trek books, at ones set least post Voyager have basically had an uninterrupted timeline since Voyager ended.
This will essentially be the biggest change to the Post-Voyager Book Canon since 2000.

For me, it's like what Tuskin said. I've had books cancelled out. When the movie First Contact came out, I was briefly bothered that it pretty much wiped out the future history about man's first contact as summarized in the beginning of the book 'Strangers From the Sky'. But it was one book, and I loved the movie. Diane Duane's novels about the Romulans (Rihannsu as she called them) was mostly overwritten once TNG and the other spin offs came out (though she made an effort to bring some of that in line with her later books). But that was just a handful of books about a single subject really.

The difference here is we're talking about almost 2 decades of books. I've grown attached the narrative, the characters, even the ships in the huge litverse now. It's a testament to all the authors of the stories, some of whom no longer even write Star Trek books, and one or two because they are no longer with us. It's also interesting to note some characters created all those years ago by some other authors, continue to live on the novels today. So it's a long time.

And maybe we grew a bit complacent. It seemed the spin-off shows were done, ended. Most rumored future shows seem to have timelines far in the future, which was far less likely to affect the current litverse. So at least in my case until the nu-TNG show was announced I thought the spin-off relaunches would just continue on until people got sick of them.
 
To be honest, part of the reason I'm so blase about the inconsistencies is that I've spent decades being frustrated at the inconsistencies between different versions of Trek, and often within a single version (like TNG retconning Data to be emotionless at the start of season 3, and changing his emotion chip to "permanently fused" in GEN to casually removable in INS). I'm not crazy about the continuity issues with DSC, no, but they're par for the course when it comes to Trek.

I'm sure being in the business helped that evolution as well. You see, better than us at least, what goes into making these shows. One thing I do like about Discovery is as King Daniel noted the internal consistency. Unlike Star Trek of the past, they seem to be making an effort to even keeping the tie-ins on track with the show, not only so that the tie-ins don't inadvertently contradict canon, but even the reverse. Now it may happen at some point the show will have to contradict some story element of a novel, but it seems they want to keep that to a minimum.

But also it keeps you guys busy. A lot of books 'fix' many of those continuity errors. I look forward to future Discovery novels as I'm sure some of them will explain away some of these inconsistencies and help make the puzzle pieces fit a bit better (though I know that won't be the sole purpose of the novels, but sometimes a simple paragraph is enough to smooth over an inconsistency somewhere).

You know, I thought Data was always emotionless though. I don't recall a substantial change to him in season 3. As far as his emotion chip, I just figured they found a way to unfuse it, after all, nothing is really ever permanent. Then it mysteriously disappeared in Nemesis (something I didn't really think of until the "A Time To..." novels actually).
 
That's kind of what the X-Men movies do, though. They purport to be a single continuity but often contradict each other. And there have been plenty of angry Facebook posts about it, but it doesn't stop the filmmakers from doing it anyway.

Thanks for the lay-up to link to my third-favorite tweet I made in 2018. The thread appears to be broken, but people were talking about whether deleted scenes were canon, and a writer of one of the X-Men films pointed out that, in his experience, entire prior movies were then weren't canon all willy-nilly.
 
Remember when we just watched these shows for fun?

One of the downsides of the internet I guess. I know before that I didn't even realize there was even a thing known as canon (in my very early days I was naïve enough to think books were part of the 'canon' even if I didn't know it was a 'thing'--Hell, I thought the first book I ever read as a fan, Battlestations, was an episode--I swear I spent a week looking for it at the video store :rolleyes: ).

But now we have the internet, and things like Memory Alpha where we can look all these things up, making it easier to find discontinuities. And of course it was harder to discuss these things with other fans. So it was probably easier to let things go.

Sometimes I think the 70's and 80's were an easier time. You still had most of the luxuries we have today, like running water, and even cable TV, but without all the complexities of the internet, smart phones, 24 hour news cycles.
 
The difference here is we're talking about almost 2 decades of books. I've grown attached the narrative, the characters, even the ships in the huge litverse now. It's a testament to all the authors of the stories, some of whom no longer even write Star Trek books, and one or two because they are no longer with us. It's also interesting to note some characters created all those years ago by some other authors, continue to live on the novels today. So it's a long time.

On the other hand, 2 decades is a hell of a successful run. If it comes to an end, we still have something to be proud of.


I'm sure being in the business helped that evolution as well. You see, better than us at least, what goes into making these shows. One thing I do like about Discovery is as King Daniel noted the internal consistency. Unlike Star Trek of the past, they seem to be making an effort to even keeping the tie-ins on track with the show, not only so that the tie-ins don't inadvertently contradict canon, but even the reverse. Now it may happen at some point the show will have to contradict some story element of a novel, but it seems they want to keep that to a minimum.

Didn't the Short Treks episode about Saru already contradict the books' name for his homeworld? I think their concern with the tie-ins is more about making sure they don't contradict the show the way early tie-ins sometimes do.


You know, I thought Data was always emotionless though. I don't recall a substantial change to him in season 3.

Look at how he reacts to Armus after Tasha Yar's death in "Skin of Evil," and how that gets called back in "The Measure of a Man." Data was meant from the start to have emotions, just in a subdued and underdeveloped way. He was meant to be naive about emotion, not literally incapable of it. You can see that even more clearly in the novels Survivors and Metamorphosis by Jean Lorrah, which get into Data's head and show his emotional responses. Those books were entirely consistent with how his character was conceived when they were written. I was really annoyed when "The Ensigns of Command" came along and imposed the hackneyed "robots can't feel" cliche onto Data. (Which is stupid. Emotion is far more basic and simple than sapient thought. It's an inbuilt, automatic reaction to stimuli, just like computer programs are. It should be far easier to give a computer emotion than to give it consciousness.)

Data was largely based on Questor from The Questor Tapes. In that pilot movie, Questor was initially naive about emotion because much of his programming for it had been erased from the titular tapes, but he still had the potential for it, and at the end he had his full programming restored. Data was also based on Phase II's Xon, a full Vulcan whose emotions were repressed but who tried to explore and develop his emotional side the better to get along with his human crewmates. Data was originally meant to be on a journey to explore and develop his emotional potential, like those characters.
 
I was really annoyed when "The Ensigns of Command" came along and imposed the hackneyed "robots can't feel" cliche onto Data. (Which is stupid. Emotion is far more basic and simple than sapient thought. It's an inbuilt, automatic reaction to stimuli, just like computer programs are. It should be far easier to give a computer emotion than to give it consciousness.)

I didn't pick up on that as much. I just always thought he was this way. I think of "Datalore" for instance where one of the big differences was between Data and Lore was Data's lack of emotion. Lore even told him Dr Soong created Data that way on purpose.

But I never actually felt Data was truly emotionless throughout the show. I remember when they thought he had died when Kevas stole him they even noted that he didn't seem totally without emotion. That there was some quality there that went beyond simple machine programming. Geordi seemed to doubt his friend totally lacked emotion. Maybe part of it was how Spiner played him, but he wasn't played like a Vulcan. He was played like a man who maybe didn't totally lack emotions, but didn't fully understand them. How could he create friendships otherwise. And loyalty. All that had to go beyond programming. In a way, I almost thing the writers said he lacked emotion almost as an irony, because we all knew somewhere in Data, there was a hint of that emotion. Data just didn't realize he had that when he made that statement in "Ensigns of Command".

"Metamorphosis" was one of my favorite TNG books. Data finally got his wish, for a time.
 
Sometimes I think the 70's and 80's were an easier time. You still had most of the luxuries we have today, like running water, and even cable TV, but without all the complexities of the internet, smart phones, 24 hour news cycles.

And sitcoms had laugh tracks. How in the hell am I supposed to know when to laugh without a laugh track :rofl:
 
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