Spoilers New Picard TV Series and Litverse Continuity (may contain TV show spoilers)

[ryan123450]

I’m hoping beyond hope that the contract renegotiations dragging on and on, and the inability to reference the Kelvinverse for so long, resulting in us still not having the destruction of Romulus story after 10 years will be a blessing in disguise. The fact that it’s finally almost time to tell that story, coupled with the fact that there will surely need to be a Picard show tie-in novel detailing that backstory gives me hope that the Litverse can just roll into the storyline of the Picard show backstory with sure, perhaps a few continuity hiccups, but all in all if we want to consider the Litverse of the past 15 years as in continuity with the new show, there won’t be any major reason we can’t. Perhaps the showrunners won’t be interested in what took place between Nemesis and Romulus getting destroyed, so there won’t be much to worry about, as the aftermath of that event seems to be their main focus.

To boil my thoughts down, it’s still possible (and seems a little moreso than yesterday) that things will shake out in a way that Destiny, The Fall, and Available Light will fit with the canon as it will stand twelve months from now.

 

[Damian]

I guess we're not getting that Hobus Trilogy now, huh?

Nah. I doubt they are going to spend a ton of time detailing the destruction of Romulus, since the show takes place 11-12 years later. It'll probably be more anecdotal and it will be up to the novel writers to fill in all the details.

Like Ryan, I hope there is a way to bring the novel continuity in line with the nu-TNG show without throwing out what's happened up to this point in the novels. Yes, it would be almost unprecedented but this is an almost totally new regime so I wouldn't totally rule it out.

And maybe ryan makes a good point. I wouldn't be surprised if the nu-TNG uses the destruction of Romulus as their starting point of his current backstory (besides what we already know from TNG through to Nemesis). That's still in the future of the current novels which I think would be significant if true. If that's the case, the primary basics I see that would need preservation are his son, that he was in command of the Enterprise through at least just prior to the destruction of Romulus, and no Borg (at least as we remember them). I believe most other things can be brought in line by future novels.

Who knows, maybe something about the destruction of Romulus has consequences for his command and his family. Plus there are still future novels and we don't know yet about how the Section 31 consequences might affect Picard's future. Once they start working on story ideas for the shows, some of that might feed into future books and maybe they can get an early start in bringing the narrative in line. There's still 12 years to fill in between the two so that still leaves a great deal in flexibility.

The Discovery novels thus far have taken place prior to the show to fill in the backstory and history of the characters. It's possible they may want the novelverse to actually continue as a tie in to the nu-TNG show to give fans the backstory of how Picard ends up where he is. They may want to avoid novels contemporary to the nu-TNG show to avoid potential conflicts, like Discovery, and may prefer the novels fill in the history, something they won't want to spend tons of time on in the show.

 

[David cgc]

This is bringing to mind the comics produced between TWOK and TSFS, and then between TSFS and TVH, where they continued on from each movie, making logical extrapolations of how things would go, and then seamlessly(ish) reset to the cinematic status quo once the next movie came out and, of course, didn't care a jot what the comics were doing. With well over a decade to play with, a capacity limited only by imagination, and, if worse comes to worse, copious in-universe precedent for time-travel (it worked on "Eureka." Twice!), I'll be surprised if the 24th century novelverse just comes to a dead stop out of the blue.

 

[Damian]

This is bringing to mind the comics produced between TWOK and TSFS, and then between TSFS and TVH, where they continued on from each movie, making logical extrapolations of how things would go, and then seamlessly(ish) reset to the cinematic status quo once the next movie came out and, of course, didn't care a jot what the comics were doing. With well over a decade to play with, a capacity limited only by imagination, and, if worse comes to worse, copious in-universe precedent for time-travel (it worked on "Eureka." Twice!), I'll be surprised if the 24th century novelverse just comes to a dead stop out of the blue.

Yeah, there's a lot of flexibility in this case because of the 12 years between where we are now in the novelverse and the apparent start of the nu-TNG show.

The biggest danger is they could send it all tumbling down with one line saying Picard never had a family and his ship was destroyed a year after Nemesis. Something drastic along those lines would make it pretty much impossible for the novelverse to exist in that reality. But there's no reason at this point to expect something like that. Then indicating the start point for the background of the show will be the destruction of Romulus, and not really Nemesis, indicates to me there's a possibility the existing novelverse may not be totally upended like that. Kirsten Beyer, one of the show runners/writers, certainly has knowledge of the relaunch continuities since she too writes in that reality and maybe the new showrunners like some of that background. Maybe they are just as happy to see the Borg gone and not have to deal with them anymore, and Picard have a family and continue as captain for several more years after Nemesis. Maybe in fact they need him to be Captain during the destruction of Romulus to start their story. And maybe something happens to his family during that incident that has a lasting impact on Picard of the new show.

 

[Desert Kris]

When I saw the thread title, I honestly thought it was a reference to the two distinct ways time passes in Madeleine L'Engle's works. But no, there's no "Thanos" there; just "Chronos" and "Kairos."

Oops. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
<Emily Litella>Oh. That's very different. Nevermind.</Emily Litella>

I re-read A Wrinkle in Time before the new movie came out, and for some reason this time around I got a strong Star Trek vibe from it that I never had before; mainly when they get to Camazotz. Never remotely seemed like ST before, all the previous times I read it.

 

[JoeZhang]

The denial still seems strong on this thread - you are talking as if avoiding one big moment will do - there might be a big moment like a juggernaut but equally it's the 100s of small lines that will do it bit by bit.

A reference to having not seen Bev since leaving the Enterprise, Riker not making Admiral, an Borg incursion a few years before the setting of the show, the Enterprise disappearing under Captain Blah ten years previously.

The only real question to me is how they wrap up this version of the litverse.

 

[David Weller]

The denial still seems strong on this thread - you are talking as if avoiding one big moment will do - there might be a big moment like a juggernaut but equally it's the 100s of small lines that will do it bit by bit.

A reference to having not seen Bev since leaving the Enterprise, Riker not making Admiral, an Borg incursion a few years before the setting of the show, the Enterprise disappearing under Captain Blah ten years previously.

The only real question to me is how they wrap up this version of the litverse.

Or as someone above said:

‘Picard resigned from Starfleet following the events of Nemesis and the death of his friend Data.’

 

[Damian]

‘Picard resigned from Starfleet following the events of Nemesis and the death of his friend Data.’

The denial still seems strong on this thread - you are talking as if avoiding one big moment will do - there might be a big moment like a juggernaut but equally it's the 100s of small lines that will do it bit by bit.

A reference to having not seen Bev since leaving the Enterprise, Riker not making Admiral, an Borg incursion a few years before the setting of the show, the Enterprise disappearing under Captain Blah ten years previously

Yep, that's all true. I've noted that myself. One sentence can send it all crashing down.

But it's equally possible none of that happens. It all depends on how much they delve into the past, or is it a show that's more concerned with the here and now. Alex Kurtzman indicated something happens during the destruction of Romulus that starts Picard down the path to where we find him today. That tells me they are not all that concerned with what happened between Nemesis and the supernova. That's one positive sign for the current litverse, since their won't be any outright contradictory stories during that period of time which is where the novels are now.

And I really don't thing they are going to spend lots of time on expository information about the past. I think they'll share just enough to let people know where Picard is today and why. It'll be up to tie ins like books (and maybe comics) to fill all the details in later once the show gets started for those people that want to know all that. It's not going to be a 25-30 episode season so they are not going to want to spend valuable show time focused on the past. I think they'll set it up quickly and get the show moving forward.

And like I said, maybe some of them are familiar with the current litverse and maybe are satisfied with where Captain Picard is currently there--maybe it even helps them a bit, having some prior history already set that they don't have to worry about. Maybe they feel the Borg have been covered to death and are just as happy not to have to worry about them anymore. I know I feel that way. I loved the Borg as a villain, but I'm fine if they are gone for good. It's possible they may not mention the Borg at all.

His family may be a dealbreaker though. If they say he was never married and never had children, that's pretty major and I doubt could be overcome. If he had a family and something happened during the supernova, I'd think that would play a significant role where Picard is now on the show and would have to be mentioned so it can't be really ignored either. That we'll have to watch for.

As far as Riker, I'd be shocked if he weren't Admiral by now regardless of their stance on the litverse. 20 years after Nemesis, and he clearly had ambition. Besides, I'd be shocked if Jonathan Frakes didn't appear as a guest star at some point. And as an admiral he'd be in a better position to help Picard with some situation (I think it's logical to assume there will be a situation where a Starfleet Admiral that is a close friend of Picards would be of help---and not just have him come over for tea and conversation, that would be a waste).

 

[Relayer1]

I guess we're not getting that Hobus Trilogy now, huh?

Starting to look like Hobus is the big reset button...

 

[Christopher]

But it's equally possible none of that happens. It all depends on how much they delve into the past, or is it a show that's more concerned with the here and now.

That's still no guarantee. What if "the here and now" includes a visit from the Tzenkethi ambassador and the species looks and acts totally different than the version in the books? Or includes a visit to Risa, a planet that's been perfectly at peace for centuries and was never annihilated in a Borg invasion? There are countless things they could show in the series present that would be irreconcilable with the "past" of the novelverse, because not everything is ephemeral. In the case of TNG and the '80s novel continuity, it wasn't references to past events that overwrote it, but rather the portrayal of Klingon and Romulan cultures in the show's "here and now" being very different from the way those cultures were depicted in John M. Ford's and Diane Duane's novels, and the others that borrowed from them.

Alex Kurtzman indicated something happens during the destruction of Romulus that starts Picard down the path to where we find him today. That tells me they are not all that concerned with what happened between Nemesis and the supernova.

That makes no sense. Just because it's the one thing that's been announced in the press so far doesn't mean it's the only thing that matters to their worldbuilding and character development. And just because it's the starting point for developing Picard's situation in the show's present, that doesn't mean it's the only past event that will ever be mentioned. The starting point for Sisko's journey in DS9 was the Battle of Wolf 359, but he resolved his issues with that event by the end of the pilot, and subsequent episodes revealed a lot about his life before that event. A starting point is only that -- a beginning.

 

[Damian]

That's still no guarantee. What if "the here and now" includes a visit from the Tzenkethi ambassador and the species looks and acts totally different than the version in the books? Or includes a visit to Risa, a planet that's been perfectly at peace for centuries and was never annihilated in a Borg invasion? There are countless things they could show in the series present that would be irreconcilable with the "past" of the novelverse, because not everything is ephemeral. In the case of TNG and the '80s novel continuity, it wasn't references to past events that overwrote it, but rather the portrayal of Klingon and Romulan cultures in the show's "here and now" being very different from the way those cultures were depicted in John M. Ford's and Diane Duane's novels, and the others that borrowed from them.




That makes no sense. Just because it's the one thing that's been announced in the press so far doesn't mean it's the only thing that matters to their worldbuilding and character development. And just because it's the starting point for developing Picard's situation in the show's present, that doesn't mean it's the only past event that will ever be mentioned. The starting point for Sisko's journey in DS9 was the Battle of Wolf 359, but he resolved his issues with that event by the end of the pilot, and subsequent episodes revealed a lot about his life before that event. A starting point is only that -- a beginning.

Yep, that's all true. You're right. A lot depends on where they go forward. Those are some big ifs. Ultimately we'll have to see if it's possible for the litverse to be reconciled with the nu-TNG show.

I'd love to have my cake and eat it too. I certainly would love a nu-TNG show, but yes, as you can judge from my comments I'd love to see the litverse continue on and fill in the missing years between the destruction of Romulus and the time frame of the new show. I sincerely hope it's possible.

I think the difference between those prior books being overwritten and the current relaunch litverse is now there' have been, what, 15 years of stories. That's a lot of narrative and a lot of characters that can be wiped out with a single sentence. I'm hoping somehow there's a way for them to coexist.

 

[Damian]

. And just because it's the starting point for developing Picard's situation in the show's present, that doesn't mean it's the only past event that will ever be mentioned.

On that point, I do agree. But I think past events that would be mentioned are more likely to be from the original show. I actually don't think they're going to bring up hypothetical events between Nemesis and the destruction of Romulus that have never been seen on screen. And like I noted before, I get the feeling this show will want to set things up quickly and be more focused on the here and now. I don't think with the limited episodes they have that they're going to be focused a lot on reminiscing about the past.

 

[Christopher]

I'd love to have my cake and eat it too. I certainly would love a nu-TNG show, but yes, as you can judge from my comments I'd love to see the litverse continue on and fill in the missing years between the destruction of Romulus and the time frame of the new show. I sincerely hope it's possible.

I think the difference between those prior books being overwritten and the current relaunch litverse is now there' have been, what, 15 years of stories. That's a lot of narrative and a lot of characters that can be wiped out with a single sentence. I'm hoping somehow there's a way for them to coexist.

Nothing would be "wiped out." The stories would still be there to be read and enjoyed. Even if the current Novelverse comes to an end, it's still a vast, mostly unified narrative that's been running for roughly two decades, which is a huge accomplishment. Everything ends and everything changes, but even if the Novelverse ends next year or thereabouts, it'll still be one of the largest, longest-running tie-in franchises of its kind. And the books will still go on after it, just with a different continuity.

The one thing you must keep in mind is that the show's own needs will come first, and it will be the job of the tie-ins to follow its lead; the show will not compromise its own goals for the sake of consistency to the books, nor should it. Tie-ins are not original fiction. They exist purely as supplements and supports to the original franchise, for they would not exist without it. Even if the show borrows some ideas from the novel continuity, it will use them in its own way that may conflict with the novels' version, as Star Wars screen canon has done with ideas and characters that debuted in the Expanded Universe novels and comics. And recall what happened in the SW EU when the prequels and The Clone Wars came out: The EU nominally continued on as it had, but quietly retconned parts of its own past that had been contradicted by new movies and shows, keeping only the parts that hadn't been contradicted and changing the rest to follow the canon's lead. Indeed, the Trek Novelverse has done similar things with regard to Enterprise -- for instance, novels published after "In a Mirror, Darkly" disregarded The Sundered's description of the Tholians' scorpion-like appearance in favor of the new canon version, but otherwise kept the Tholian worldbuilding from that book.

So even if the Novelverse attempts to carry on, it will be an imperfect fit and things will be retconned and overwritten by new show canon. That's just how these things work.

And like I noted before, I get the feeling this show will want to set things up quickly and be more focused on the here and now. I don't think with the limited episodes they have that they're going to be focused a lot on reminiscing about the past.

I already refuted that point -- you don't have to specifically address the past in order to contradict things, because it's not just about events, it's about worldbuilding elements that are consistent across time, like the appearance and culture of alien races.

 

[Nyotarules]

Opening scene - Picard wakes up and heads for the shower to join his spouse, retired Admiral Alynna Nechayev

 

[Damian]

Nothing would be "wiped out." The stories would still be there to be read and enjoyed. Even if the current Novelverse comes to an end, it's still a vast, mostly unified narrative that's been running for roughly two decades, which is a huge accomplishment. Everything ends and everything changes, but even if the Novelverse ends next year or thereabouts, it'll still be one of the largest, longest-running tie-in franchises of its kind. And the books will still go on after it, just with a different continuity.

I realize that. And I know it's not like CBS is going to go around and confiscate everyone's books and do a memory wipe or anything. I'd just would like to see those stories continue as there are tons of things going on, and continuing storylines that I'd hate to see just end.

I already refuted that point -- you don't have to specifically address the past in order to contradict things, because it's not just about events, it's about worldbuilding elements that are consistent across time, like the appearance and culture of alien races.

I'm not denying that. It's just I don't think they're going to say such and such happened to Captain Picard two years after Nemesis. With Sisko and DS9 they had no previous on screen past for him so it was logical they would bring up things that happened not seen on screen. With Picard's past prior to the supernova, we have an entire TV series that sets up his past. I was just pointing out if he brings up something that happened in his past, it will likely be a nod to something from the series, or maybe movies, because it's something the fans will remember. With all that on screen history I doubt they'd mention something never seen on screen. I think they'd rather a "Hey I remember when that happened" as opposed to "what are they talking about". But yeah, that has nothing to do with the here and now and depicting something that sends the house of cards crashing down.

 

[valkyrie013]

Well only the "Hard Star Trek" fans (mostly) read the star trek Lit verse.. So asking the casual viewer, or the trekkie that doesn't read the books, to "go read the books" if you want to know what happened.. isn't going to happen. Like has been said before, they could stick realativly close, or just not talk to much about it ( like the "Lost Era" between ST 6 and Tng, or 2161, and Disco) , which I hope turns out that way, and only minor rivisions come about, but they could blow it all out of the water if the Borg is still alive.. if that happens, the current post tng trek lit is nuked..

We can go back and forth till the cows come home, we just won't know until looks like latter this year when it debuts. So, hope for the best, but adapt and overcome and move forward!

 

[Christopher]

I'm not denying that. It's just I don't think they're going to say such and such happened to Captain Picard two years after Nemesis.

No, you don't want to think that, and you're convincing yourself it's true because it makes you feel better. The truth is that you have no idea what they will or won't have reason to mention, because the factual information we currently have about the series is limited to 3 or 4 sentences, far too little to draw any sensible conclusions from. There's far more that we don't know than we do.

 

[Damian]

Well only the "Hard Star Trek" fans (mostly) read the star trek Lit verse.. So asking the casual viewer, or the trekkie that doesn't read the books, to "go read the books" if you want to know what happened.. isn't going to happen. Like has been said before, they could stick realativly close, or just not talk to much about it ( like the "Lost Era" between ST 6 and Tng, or 2161, and Disco) , which I hope turns out that way, and only minor rivisions come about, but they could blow it all out of the water if the Borg is still alive.. if that happens, the current post tng trek lit is nuked..

We can go back and forth till the cows come home, we just won't know until looks like latter this year when it debuts. So, hope for the best, but adapt and overcome and move forward!

Yeah, I agree. And absolutely whether the litverse can be preserved or not, it's not going to be required reading for the new show. In either case they'll write the show that you don't have to have any prior knowledge about it to watch it (well, I guess since it's building off TNG show it will probably be helpful to have at least some passing familiarity to the show itself).

Nor do I expect that. If it can be preserved to a large degree, then I'll personally be looking to the novels to fill in the details and the gaps. If not, the tie-in fiction will still be there, but in that case I think it will be more like Discovery's novels, where they are one off novels that give more details about things mentioned in the show (I don't believe they'll be a new continuing narrative in the novels in that case).

And yeah, until the show starts it's all speculation and what if's. In any event I hope it's a good show. I'd hate to see the litverse blown up for a lousy show, though honestly that would be a shock with Patrick Stewart's chops.

 

[Damian]

No, you don't want to think that, and you're convincing yourself it's true because it makes you feel better. The truth is that you have no idea what they will or won't have reason to mention, because the factual information we currently have about the series is limited to 3 or 4 sentences, far too little to draw any sensible conclusions from. There's far more that we don't know than we do.

Ok, ok. Yes you're right. My opinion on that is not based on any wish on the showrunners part to preserve any prior continuity.

It's actually more that I find writers of Star Trek shows love to reference things that have been seen on screen already so fans can say, "ooh, I remember that episode"--Easter eggs and that sort of thing.

It's really more that given the choice of referencing a historical event, I find shows would rather reference something seen on screen already if possible as opposed to something never seen. You don't get those "ooh, cool" moments when it's something you don't remember ever seeing.

Of course that's no guarantee.

 

[Christopher]

One more time: TNG overwrote the '80s novel continuity by what it established about the present, and about time-spanning things like the nature of Klingon and Romulan societies. It didn't need to refer to specific past events to be inconsistent. It was the overall worldbuilding that did it.