In that case, Chekov's line: "We'd have all to turn ourselves in" doesn't make any sense!
Plus Uhura's line: "They might as well have prosecuted me. I felt like Lieutenant Valeris."
Clearly says that Valeris WASN'T prosecuted.
Something that bugs me about TUC
- Thread starter Discofan
- Start date
In that case, Chekov's line: "We'd have all to turn ourselves in" doesn't make any sense!
Plus Uhura's line: "They might as well have prosecuted me. I felt like Lieutenant Valeris."
Clearly says that Valeris WASN'T prosecuted.
KIRK: Once again we've saved civilisation, as we know it.
McCOY: And the good news is they're not going to prosecute.
UHURA: They might as well have prosecuted me. I felt like Lieutenant Valeris.
McCOY: Well, they don't arrest people for having feelings.
CHEKOV: And it's a good thing too. If we did we'd all have to turn ourselves in.
Obviously my opinions:
Chekov is responding to McCoy's line about prosecuting people for having feelings. I don't see how that doesn't make sense.
Uhura is saying she felt like Valeris in the sense that she was disobeying orders and being a conspirator as Valeris was. Obviously Uhura's actions fell on the side of "the right thing to do".
McCOY: And the good news is they're not going to prosecute.
UHURA: They might as well have prosecuted me. I felt like Lieutenant Valeris.
McCOY: Well, they don't arrest people for having feelings.
CHEKOV: And it's a good thing too. If we did we'd all have to turn ourselves in.
Obviously my opinions:
Chekov is responding to McCoy's line about prosecuting people for having feelings. I don't see how that doesn't make sense.
Uhura is saying she felt like Valeris in the sense that she was disobeying orders and being a conspirator as Valeris was. Obviously Uhura's actions fell on the side of "the right thing to do".
No, I'm not following you at all.
Chekov says "we'd have to turn ourselves in" in response to McCoy saying that they don't arrest people for having feelings" and Uhura was just acknowledging that she understood what drove Valeria's behavior.
There's no doubt that the conspirators were in deep shit. I find it absolutely unfathomable that anyone would believe that they got off the hook for their actions. They murdered a head of state, framed high-profile members of the military, attacked two starships and attempted murder on the UFP president.
You don't smile and joke and say "oh goodie, those people aren't going to be prosecuted. " Star Trek VI was stupid in parts, but it wasn't THAT stupid.
It's still a bit of a leap, but it seems reasonable to me that if they know someone on the Enterprise was in on the conspiracy, since the computer was tampered with, that the Starfleet spacesuits used by the assassins would've come from the ship. If you're going to go to the trouble of framing the Enterprise, and you've got someone on the Enterprise, you may as well take advantage of all the Enterprise paraphernalia available to you, rather than stealing Starfleet supplies from other source and smuggling them over to the cloaked ship.
If they hadn't figured out there was a conspirator on-board, then it'd be more likely that the assassins came from the second ship, since they'd have no indication that the attack was anything but the act of a third party.
Let's break your read on that down. "They might as well have prosecuted me [which they haven't], since I felt like Lieutenant Valeris [who wasn't prosecuted for feeling the same was as me]."
If Valeris got off scott free, what's Uhura comparing herself to? Uhura feels like she should've been punished, because she's like the person who wasn't punished?
I agree. It was a reference to their actions in Star Trek: III The Search for Spock, which directly led to them being prosecuted and indirectly led to them saving the world. The joke is they keep saving the world by breaking the rules.
I am sorry but grammatically that's exactly what it means, let me break it down for you:
"Had they prosecuted Valeris (which means that they haven't),
they might as well have prosecuted me (which they won't)"
Yes, that's exactly what it means. It means that Uhura was justifying the non-prosecution of Valeris by saying that said prosecution would have for logical consequence HER prosecution for feeling the same way as well.
And that is the only way Uhura's remark makes sense. Otherwise, it's awkward and inadequate.
Whether or not it grammatically makes sense or not is irrelevant. It would be Plan 9 From Outer Space levels of stupid for that line to literally mean that Valeris or Cartwright goes free for no good reason after being major contributors/architects to a conspiracy that amounts to multiple murders, framing, assassination, attempted assassination and treason.
Like I said, TUC can be a bit stupid at times, but that is absolute undeniable nonsense that makes sense on absolutely no level.
And since I honestly don't believe that Nimoy or Meyer are that lame brained...I'd say that Valeris and the conspirators got locked up and the Enterprise crew got away without being prosecuted, despite failing to follow Starfleet orders to return to port.
That makes far more sense in the context of the story...don't you think??
I wasn't approving of what Uhura said. In fact, IMO they all deserve the same thing that happened to Kirk when it was believed that he was the conspirator, IE being judged by the Klingons who would no doubt send them to the same penal colony.
I am just saying that: "...they might as well have prosecuted me, after all, I felt the same way [as her]" is an incomplete sentence and only makes sense if it follows "Had they prosecuted Valeris..."
So it's either "Uhura speaks in incomplete/incoherent sentences" or "what she says means that Valeris wasn't prosecuted."
The conclusion is that it's the usual one minute wrap up of the writers that don't give a damn anymore!!!
I agree, the wrap-up feels like "Recreate the vortex, Commander" from FC which is the worst VOY-like slog-off in the film franchise.
How so? Chekov is contextually specifying a difference in the treatments of himself and Valeris: "they might have" but in this case didn't, despite the shared feelings. Grammar doesn't touch on that at all.
In any case, all this talk about prosecution is beside the point, as the heroes have no plot reason to discuss Valeris or the conspiracy. They are worried about their own fates here, and rightly so. The conspiracy probably won't be wrapped up within the confines of the movie, or even within the lifetimes of most of the characters. The antagonism with Klingons has no end in sight, either. But prosecution of our heroes, on whatever charges (Uhura's are imaginary, a mere sigh of relief rather than a tackling of the actual issues the heroes might have faced for their mutiny, sabotage and whatnot) is the currently relevant issue.
Timo Saloniemi
Just as I said at the very start of this discussion. It's a matter of opinion, a YMMV point. Nothing is made clear or set in stone. They have no reason to discuss anything anymore just to say that everyone is happy, because if you stop to think about it, assuming Valeris and the others, the star fleet people, the Klingons (there's the head of RP for one), the Romulans etc... all get prosecuted in a civilized manner that would mean months or ever years of inquiry, and hours of testimony for our heroes who'd have something to say about it. Plus it could mean further inquiry to see if members of the crew are not guilty of something be it criminal negligence, complicity or something else.
The comic book wrap-up that we got is completely unrealistic and cartoonish to say the least!
To compare what's comparable look at how much complexity, contradiction, years of inquest and still more than half a century later unanswered questions are left about the Kennedy assassination!!! And tell me that the ending is not laughably simplistic!!!
Ooh! I get it! You think Uhura was being sarcastic, because you think they were talking about Valeris and not themselves in the first place (even though she didn't play the line as sarcastic, but embarrassed). Well, no. McCoy was talking about all the crimes they (as in, the six people on the bridge at that moment, not including Valeris) committed in the movie (disobeying orders to return to Earth, breaking convicts out of Klingon prison, breaking into a peace conference waving guns around and taking several diplomats and high-ranking officials hostage).
Why would McCoy think it was good news that they weren't going to prosecute the conspirators? Why would Uhura minimize what Valeris and the others did as being no worse than her own, unacted-upon political opinions? They just spent the whole movie fighiting the conspiracy, and suddenly they're talk-radio partisans, making lame excuses for how assassinating Gorkon, framing Kirk, and shooting Burke and Samno in the head weren't really crimes, because who among us wouldn't if we had the chance?
I know what it's like to misunderstand a line (there are a couple whoppers that never made sense in Meyer's other Trek movie because of misplaced emphasis), but this is not a hill to die on.
I am sorry but I never thought that Uhura was being sarcastic. I think she meant exactly what she said.
As for your theory, let's analyze the evidence, IE the script, shall we?
First the script of that part:
KIRK: Once again we've saved civilization, as we know it.
McCOY: And the good news is they're not going to prosecute.
UHURA: They might as well have prosecuted me. I felt like Lieutenant Valeris.
McCOY: Well, they don't arrest people for having feelings.
CHEKOV: And it's a good thing too. If we did we'd all have to turn ourselves in.
The question is simple: Who's McCoy talking about? Meaning: whom are they not going to prosecute?
Two possibilities:
1) The crew (everyone who participated on the Enterprise and/or the Excelsior):
But that crew includes Uhura!!
So it makes no sense for her to say that "Had they prosecuted the crew (including her)"
They might as well have prosecuted her!!! It's borderline insane in fact.
The "might as well" makes no sense whatsoever. Because had they prosecuted the crew the definitely WOULD HAVE prosecuted Uhura, no "might" about it!
So it can't possibly be that!
2) The conspirators:
Then Uhura's remark makes sense: "Had they prosecuted THE CONSPIRATORS, they might as well have prosecuted HER, because she felt like Lieutenant Valeris (IE one of the conspirators).
Now Uhura's remark makes sense instead of being... absurd!
Now why McCoy thinks not prosecuting the conspirators is a good thing?
It's very simple really.
Remember what Kirk said to him at RP?
"You and I are nothing!"
or what McCoy said at the trial?
" I was desperate to save him! He was the last best hope in the universe for peace"
McCoy is looking at THE BIG PICTURE.
A large prosecution of many people including people from the Federation and people from the Klingon Empire
Would have meant hours of trial, a controversy would arise and people would think of the trial instead of the important thing (to McCoy) the peace talks. McCoy is happy because the peace talks can start without delays and without being poisoned by petty partisanship. By not prosecuting the conspirators Azetbur and the President removed the last arguments of those who were trying to divide.
So, in conclusion, they're not going to prosecute the conspirators because it would likely delay the peace talks and poison the (fragile) relations between the Klingons and the Federation.
Azetbur and the President ruled wisely!
And I am sorry but Valeris is free as a bird.
As for your theory, let's analyze the evidence, IE the script, shall we?
First the script of that part:
KIRK: Once again we've saved civilization, as we know it.
McCOY: And the good news is they're not going to prosecute.
UHURA: They might as well have prosecuted me. I felt like Lieutenant Valeris.
McCOY: Well, they don't arrest people for having feelings.
CHEKOV: And it's a good thing too. If we did we'd all have to turn ourselves in.
The question is simple: Who's McCoy talking about? Meaning: whom are they not going to prosecute?
Two possibilities:
1) The crew (everyone who participated on the Enterprise and/or the Excelsior):
But that crew includes Uhura!!
So it makes no sense for her to say that "Had they prosecuted the crew (including her)"
They might as well have prosecuted her!!! It's borderline insane in fact.
The "might as well" makes no sense whatsoever. Because had they prosecuted the crew the definitely WOULD HAVE prosecuted Uhura, no "might" about it!
So it can't possibly be that!
2) The conspirators:
Then Uhura's remark makes sense: "Had they prosecuted THE CONSPIRATORS, they might as well have prosecuted HER, because she felt like Lieutenant Valeris (IE one of the conspirators).
Now Uhura's remark makes sense instead of being... absurd!
Now why McCoy thinks not prosecuting the conspirators is a good thing?
It's very simple really.
Remember what Kirk said to him at RP?
"You and I are nothing!"
or what McCoy said at the trial?
" I was desperate to save him! He was the last best hope in the universe for peace"
McCoy is looking at THE BIG PICTURE.
A large prosecution of many people including people from the Federation and people from the Klingon Empire
Would have meant hours of trial, a controversy would arise and people would think of the trial instead of the important thing (to McCoy) the peace talks. McCoy is happy because the peace talks can start without delays and without being poisoned by petty partisanship. By not prosecuting the conspirators Azetbur and the President removed the last arguments of those who were trying to divide.
So, in conclusion, they're not going to prosecute the conspirators because it would likely delay the peace talks and poison the (fragile) relations between the Klingons and the Federation.
Azetbur and the President ruled wisely!
And I am sorry but Valeris is free as a bird.
Why would it delay the peace talks to prosecute Valeris and Cartwright and all the rest of them? Now that they're out of the picture, the talks can go on WHILE the prosecutions take place. There's no reason why they can't.
McCoy was clearly referring to the fact that the crew of the Enterprise are not going to be prosecuted, because their actions served a greater good. Valeris and her ilk committed obvious crimes, both against the Federation and the Klingon Empire, so they obviously ARE to be prosecuted.
McCoy was clearly referring to the fact that the crew of the Enterprise are not going to be prosecuted, because their actions served a greater good. Valeris and her ilk committed obvious crimes, both against the Federation and the Klingon Empire, so they obviously ARE to be prosecuted.
And STILL, you're ignoring the fact that in that context, Uhura's remark makes no sense whatsoever!
A large prosecution would mean hours and hours of controversial testimony, of people who's decisions will be questioned whether they took part or not in the conspiracy. Of people being divided by their loyalties... etc.
It would mean countless complications that would automatically pollute the peace talks and they could never end. Diplomatic incidents could flourish after such or such declaration by a conspirator that he was acting on orders from such or such member of the peace talks committee.
The more I think of it the more I am convinced that that was the only possible explanation for what McCoy said and what Uhura responded.
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I don't get the "cartoon wrap-up" thing here. What makes you think anything was wrapped up?
The heroes got away scot free, which is a surprise to themselves. The rest of the mess no longer is their business, although apparently there will be repercussions such as taking away of their commissions (big deal when the key figures were retiring anyway). The galaxy will boil like Saruman's kettle for years to come. But that's not within the scope of this adventure or this movie, which ends on an open note.
On the "prosecution" interpretation thing, I'll agree to utterly disagree.
Timo Saloniemi
The heroes got away scot free, which is a surprise to themselves. The rest of the mess no longer is their business, although apparently there will be repercussions such as taking away of their commissions (big deal when the key figures were retiring anyway). The galaxy will boil like Saruman's kettle for years to come. But that's not within the scope of this adventure or this movie, which ends on an open note.
On the "prosecution" interpretation thing, I'll agree to utterly disagree.
Timo Saloniemi
And you also are ignoring the fact that in that context, Uhura's statement doesn't make any sense.
Exactly. It's really not that complicated and is laid out pretty simply for the audience, if you think about it.
McCoy says "And the good news is they're not going to prosecute!"
Audience says "Huh? Not prosecute who?"
Immediately afterward, Uhura says " They might as well have prosecuted me. I felt like Lieutenant Valeris."
Audience says "OH! Valeris was let off the hook. Good. We liked her and were upset that she became a bad guy, but feel better now that all is forgiven. It's a happy ending after all."
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Funny, to me you're the one not making any sense.
