• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Would Star Trek Discovery have benefited from an episodic format?

When it comes to Discovery’s take on diversity, we’ve never seen a black woman as prominent (including Uhura even) on a Trek series/movie as Burnham, so that does make the show stand out. (It would be great if they did something though to root her more in a culturally black experience to demonstrate the difference, though the visual makes a statement on its own. A sci-fi series where the main character is a black woman. The character the audience is supposed to identify with, follow on their journey, watch their lives and loves, victories, and defeats, etc.; Off the top of my head I can’t think of another sci-fi series that has been led by a black woman). After Season 1 alone, Burnham is the most developed black female character in Trek’s history.

I suppose it is true that Trek hasn't had a black female lead before. But Trek has had a black lead and a female lead separately.

As for rooting the show in a culturally black experience - DS9 came about as close to this as possible with Far Beyond The Stars in particular, but this had to be done through a 20th century setting. The thing is in the Trekverse, human racism has vanished. So much of the black experience as it is understood in the west - particularly the U.S. is rooted in a response to racism. Take racism away, and everyone would just start to culturally blend together. Actually, genetically blend together too. One of the big missteps of Trek was that in a world where even inter-species children are common, and interracial marriage is completely normal, there should be a lot of multiracial people and relatively few humans left who look any one thing in particular. Of course I recognize that Trek is not supposed to represent what the future will actually be, but something that contemporary people can relate to. Still, it would be irresponsible to depict a culturally authentic black experience shorn of racism, and (human) racism canonically doesn't exist in the Trekverse - so it's better to leave it mostly unspoken.

Also, while as you’ve mentioned, there have been some exploration, perhaps on the edges, when it comes to LGBT issues/characters, there has never been as prominent a homosexual character as Stamets and we have yet to have seen as much exploration of an LGBT relationship as Discovery has depicted. Perhaps this is just me, but when it comes to Georgiou, Cornwell, and Tilly, as well as Burnham, it feels like Discovery is making female characters more integral to the show in ways that feel different-to me at least-than some of the previous Treks. I also think Discovery has taken some steps to make their crew feel even more inclusive, in terms of background players, than I’ve noticed in previous Treks.

I do give Discovery credit in that women are finally being written better. Even during the Berman era, Kira was the only female character which wasn't written with her femininity in some way central to her character. Nana Visitor even mentioned when she auditioned for the part she was astonished that the part wasn't written as "the woman" but just an amazing character that happened to be a woman. All of the female characters on Discovery feel like this. They aren't meant to be "the babe" or "nurturing" or anything else. They're just themselves. Now if only they could flesh them out a bit.

I see Act 2 as when Burnham starts to grasp the lessons she’s learned since the Battle of the Binary Stars. This is where they demonstrate her growth. I can see why she attached to Mirror Georgiou. I mean she’s got to be feeling very guilty about Prime Georgiou and she’s lacking a mother figure, mentor, and friend. (One thing that I did catch while watching the show was that Amanda and Burnham seemed to have a good relationship, so I don’t know why Georgiou would need to be a substitute mother like the show set up. If Soval had been the foster parent instead of Sarek I think this would’ve made more sense, IMO. I go more into why I think Soval and/or T’Pol would work better instead of Sarek later on). I think Burnham throughout has struggled to try to reconcile her human emotions with her Vulcan upbringing, so she doesn’t have ‘normal’ reactions at times to things. It reminds me a little of when Data in Generations, though not played for broad laughs like that. Burnham has struggled, is struggling with her divided halves, but her brilliance and ability to get the job done make her valuable to Starfleet so they have been willing to work with her.

Burnham feels like she was sort of focus-grouped in a lab or something. The writers realized that the breakout characters in each show - Spock, Data, Worf, The Doctor, Seven, etc - were torn between two worlds in some sense - they were outsiders to humanity looking in at us. They tried to merge this with Tom Paris's backstory. In theory it could have worked well, but I feel like the singular focus on her - along with direction not to emote heavily due to Vulcan upbringing - alienated a lot of folks.
 
DSC has had 1 season, with less episodes than previous seasons got, and seems to be expected to have accomplished everything no other Trek series every managed to do, within that time frame.
This. This creates my frustration as DSC must some how be what other Treks have been in the past with even less time. Now, if people don't like DSC that's fine. But, I'll not hold it up to every other Trek comparisons.

And, as a general note, I am at the point that I do not care that human beings "naturally compare things" as other posters have noted. This is, ostensibly, a franchise that states humanity can become better and evolve. So, perhaps that could be attempted when regarding DSC?

Aside from having McCoy in the pilot, TNG was very conscious not to be heavily referential regarding TOS until late in its third season. They wanted to establish the show as its own thing before falling back on TOS nostalgia.
What about the follow up to "The Naked Time?"
 
Aside from having McCoy in the pilot, TNG was very conscious not to be heavily referential regarding TOS until late in its third season. They wanted to establish the show as its own thing before falling back on TOS nostalgia.

Which was a purposeful, pre-production decision. Just like DSC has chosen purposefully to explore these elements of TOS characters' histories right out of the gate, which makes it unique from the "yet another ship with yet another crew let's avoid / bury TOS" drudgery ENT and VOY fell into.
 
Let me get this straight. If a Trek show buries or avoids the TOS, it's drudgery? This doesn't make any sense to me.

Why do people keep trying to make up these rules in how a Trek show is supposed to be or do in order to be successful? Like there was
 
...which makes it unique from the "yet another ship with yet another crew let's avoid / bury TOS" drudgery ENT and VOY fell into.

This comment doesn't make sense, especially where Enterprise is involved. Their big three (Archer, T'Pol, Tucker) were absolutely a nod to TOS (emotional captain, Vulcan science officer, distrustful of Vulcans Southern character). That doesn't count the countless nods to TOS. They were just a ton more subtle about it than Discovery.

Heck, in "Broken Bow", they even had a character named Tos.
 
Let me get this straight. If a Trek show buries or avoids the TOS, it's drudgery? This doesn't make any sense to me.

Why do people keep trying to make up these rules in how a Trek show is supposed to be or do in order to be successful? Like there was
You completely misinterpret what I was saying. The shows aren't drudgery because they bury TOS. They are drudgery because they use the same format over and over again, and did so in overlapping succession. DSC is the first Trek ever to purposefully dive into backstory of TOS (which is actually a vitally unique element in the show's format, just like being on a space station was a tangible, vitally unique element to DS9), while every other series was "another ship with another crew let's stand on our own," and frankly that got very stale with TNG, VOY, ENT and even the derivative Orville all out there doing precisely the same thing.

Apologies if I was unclear.
 
Last edited:
Which was a purposeful, pre-production decision. Just like DSC has chosen purposefully to explore these elements of TOS characters' histories right out of the gate, which makes it unique from the "yet another ship with yet another crew let's avoid / bury TOS" drudgery ENT and VOY fell into.

My point is people keep saying it's not fair to judge DIS as it is today with the other Trek series. A better measure is the other first seasons, or even the first half of the first seasons. I think this is a fair comparison. By that measure, most TOS fanwank in TNG came too late to really be comparable to the numerous fankwank drops (not just TOS, but also ENT) in DIS.
 
@Lord Garth got my point here. The Godfather is a singular movie. It's not the same. It's like saying a Ferrari is just like Star Trek because they're both special things people like. To quote Kirk, "That's a little vague, Spock"

The Godfather is an soap-operatic crime drama and James Bond is a spy action/intrigue franchise.

Star Trek is a science fiction franchise with over 35 primary characters that has been successfully presented as all of the following:

Action/adventure
Morality play
Ethical dilemma
Dark revenge tale
Political thriller
Allegory
Comedy
Romance
Hard sci-fi
Family drama
Wartime drama
Horror/suspense

You really can't compare it to any other property because for over 50 years it's been successfully presented as so many different things and it resonates with many different people for many different reasons. Therefore, claiming (which you did not, btw) that someone can steadfastly declare "what the essence of this whole thing is" is a bit ridiculous.
All of them were about Starfleet, all of them were about good guy protagonists, all of them had transporters. Just like James Bond it's a sandbox with walls.

My point is people keep saying it's not fair to judge DIS as it is today with the other Trek series. A better measure is the other first seasons, or even the first half of the first seasons. I think this is a fair comparison. By that measure, most TOS fanwank in TNG came too late to really be comparable to the numerous fankwank drops (not just TOS, but also ENT) in DIS.

The marketplace is more crowded. You have to do better right out of the gate. Even if you are Trek.
 
All of them were about Starfleet, all of them were about good guy protagonists, all of them had transporters. Just like James Bond it's a sandbox with walls.

So the essense of Star Trek is that it's about Starfleet, good guys, and transporters?

Those are elements of things you generally find in typical Star Trek...not what I would consider "the essence of the whole thing."

I can see this isn't going anywhere. Forget I said anything.
 
My point is people keep saying it's not fair to judge DIS as it is today with the other Trek series. A better measure is the other first seasons, or even the first half of the first seasons. I think this is a fair comparison. By that measure, most TOS fanwank in TNG came too late to really be comparable to the numerous fankwank drops (not just TOS, but also ENT) in DIS.

I don't understand why backstory or callbacks must be considered fanwank, as if it were an awful, negative thing. The criticism strikes me as a weak tool for the disappointed fans who wanted Star Trek: The Next Next Generation and didn't get it.
 
Yeah, but it's about to be real crowded with Amazon and Apple dropping dollar bags so if you want your standard 7 seasons you better come ready.
Since the market has shifted I don't believe there is a "standard season" line to be applied here.

Regardless, CBS has demonstrated by dropping their own "dollar bags" and hiring someone to oversee multiple projects. So, I'm not sure what the point of this comment other than Star Trek has competition, which I think should be obvious. :shrug:
 
I suppose it is true that Trek hasn't had a black female lead before. But Trek has had a black lead and a female lead separately.

As for rooting the show in a culturally black experience - DS9 came about as close to this as possible with Far Beyond The Stars in particular, but this had to be done through a 20th century setting. The thing is in the Trekverse, human racism has vanished. So much of the black experience as it is understood in the west - particularly the U.S. is rooted in a response to racism. Take racism away, and everyone would just start to culturally blend together. Actually, genetically blend together too. One of the big missteps of Trek was that in a world where even inter-species children are common, and interracial marriage is completely normal, there should be a lot of multiracial people and relatively few humans left who look any one thing in particular. Of course I recognize that Trek is not supposed to represent what the future will actually be, but something that contemporary people can relate to. Still, it would be irresponsible to depict a culturally authentic black experience shorn of racism, and (human) racism canonically doesn't exist in the Trekverse - so it's better to leave it mostly unspoken.



I do give Discovery credit in that women are finally being written better. Even during the Berman era, Kira was the only female character which wasn't written with her femininity in some way central to her character. Nana Visitor even mentioned when she auditioned for the part she was astonished that the part wasn't written as "the woman" but just an amazing character that happened to be a woman. All of the female characters on Discovery feel like this. They aren't meant to be "the babe" or "nurturing" or anything else. They're just themselves. Now if only they could flesh them out a bit.



Burnham feels like she was sort of focus-grouped in a lab or something. The writers realized that the breakout characters in each show - Spock, Data, Worf, The Doctor, Seven, etc - were torn between two worlds in some sense - they were outsiders to humanity looking in at us. They tried to merge this with Tom Paris's backstory. In theory it could have worked well, but I feel like the singular focus on her - along with direction not to emote heavily due to Vulcan upbringing - alienated a lot of folks.

Slavery and colonialism have been massively destructive worldwide, but the black experience (s) is not solely defined by that dark history. There was lots of history before that. Racism is not the sum total of the black experience. And when rooting a person in a culture (s), it can be simple, even nonverbal things like Sisko’s appreciation for African art. Discovery already did this to some extent, though it wasn’t specific to Burnham, with their musical choices. I never thought I would hear Wycelf Jean or Al Green music on a Trek show ever, so it was great to hear their music. Burnham could reflect cultural diversity in ways like her civilian dress, some of the foods she eats, books she reads, religion, people she references, etc. For me, it’s the next step in general when it comes to diversity. To some extent, the first hurdle of just casting people of color in roles that in the past they wouldn’t get has been accomplished-not enough or in every genre-but in some ways it has. Now, I wish Hollywood would then do the work of learning and being respectful and appreciative of the unique cultural perspectives these characters might have based on their backgrounds. I always liked when DS9 did that because it showed a kind of awareness.


I also disagree that absent something massively traumatic like racism that cultures would just blend together. For one, some cultural blending happened during slavery, in part because a new culture (I’m thinking of the US specifically, but arguably throughout the African Diaspora) was created to replace the ones stripped away during the Transatlantic slave trade. And cultural mixing-to some extent-continued after slavery, during segregation, and into the present day. That being said, cultural mixing in general, absent even a horrific history, is not a given. I mean when you look at many countries today, there is some blending-maybe-but there is also a limit, and there can be push back to too much amalgamation. A lot of people tend to want to hold on to some traditions, preserve some things that make them unique.


When it comes to female characters, I think you got what I was trying to express. Yes, they are written better for the most part on Discovery.


About Burnham, good point. The character torn between two cultures is a common Trek theme, as well as characters either contending with humanity (seeking, rejecting, etc.) in some way (Spock, Data, Worf, Odo, Seven, The Doctor, T’Pol, etc.). Though going off that, it makes me think too that none of the breakout Trek characters were ever the lead character. They added something special to the mix. Not being the official face of the show seemed to free the writers to really explore them, to have more fun with them, and some of those characters wound up stealing scenes or the show outright. It’s more like the lead character had a bit more constraints on them because they were the lead. So what Discovery is attempting to do is risky for a Trek show, to have the lead also be the kind of outsider character. Perhaps in later seasons this will shift more to Saru, but for Season 1 I think it was Burnham. Giving Burnham a Vulcan upbringing does acknowledge the importance of the Vulcans in the Federation, allows for the tie to Spock, and makes more sense in the time period of the series. However, it might have been more fun to have had Burnham be raised by Andorians or another Federation species (that might even explain her response to the Klingons in the first episode better if she had been raised in a warrior culture). Shran as her foster dad might have been fun to see.


Making Burnham culturally Vulcan was a writer-imposed limitation, though I think the writers recognized that and paired her with Tilly to get some comedy and emotion from that mismatch and to bring out Burnham’s humanity. We do see Burnham warming to Tilly and becoming her mentor and friend over the course of the season. Previous Treks understood they needed to have their Vulcan characters have someone to play off of, to either annoy them or give them a sparring partner. (Spock-McCoy; Tuvok-Neelix; T’Pol-Trip) and Discovery is doing that with Burnham and Tilly, though we might also see that to some extent with Burnham and Saru.


I think making the series about Burnham was an interesting choice that does make Discovery stand out more and I am curious to see if the writers will maintain that or turn the show over to an ensemble format. I can see why they would build the Burnham character up since she was to be the series lead. They wanted to make her an interesting character that could conceivably carry a series for several years. And tying her to Spock places her right at the heart of Trek right off the bat. And then her other accomplishments, before the war, and during it, also were meant to show-IMO-that she’s a fascinating, complex character that we want to get to know.
 
My point is people keep saying it's not fair to judge DIS as it is today with the other Trek series. A better measure is the other first seasons, or even the first half of the first seasons. I think this is a fair comparison. By that measure, most TOS fanwank in TNG came too late to really be comparable to the numerous fankwank drops (not just TOS, but also ENT) in DIS.

When it comes to Easter Eggs, etc. I think that's part of the entertainment world we live in now. The other series were on at a time when there wasn't a vibrant internet, or one at all, and there were no cinematic universes, or any of that stuff. Fans today are used to getting references, nods, etc. to previous incarnations of a series, with Trek, and beyond that, so I understand why the writers put that stuff in. They want to do appeal to fans,and of course they want to do everything they think they can to get fans on board to buy All Access or at least purchase Discovery on home video.

All the fanwank with Discovery to me is more about an audience that is used to it, likes it, and has come to expect it from long running properties. I'm not saying every nod is a good one or even necessary, but I do get why the writers do it.
 
All the fanwank with Discovery to me is more about an audience that is used to it, likes it, and has come to expect it from long running properties. I'm not saying every nod is a good one or even necessary, but I do get why the writers do it.
Thus far, that is what audiences have demonstrated that they are willing to spend money on. Despite all the complaints I hear about fanwank the places where Star Trek makes money is in the familiar elements, from fan films, to the Kelvin Universe films, Discovery, the Picard show and merchandising.

I'm not going to get annoyed at the writers for doing something that has been demonstrated to be what the majority of the audience wants as evidenced by the dollar signs.

In general, if audience members want Trek to take more risks then that comes with a willingness to spend money on it. Otherwise, it's safe and familiar.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top