Define "better?" More suited to individual taste? Perhaps more well defined and have things better explained, such as the deeper psychological ramifications of Finn and Rey's upbringing? Perhaps have difficult of time they are having trying to mesh with their new friends? Perhaps the story would have been better served if Poe Dameron had been the lead from the beginning, so we got to know him better as an audience?
I think things like the dialogue would disagree. As I say I have a problem with JJ's story idea but he can handle things like dialogue better. I think Disney has done well in getting designers and so forth in for their new movies but their not building around a decent idea. It all comes back to the notion that some of the best bits of the OT were where Lucas didn't have complete control. He had people suggesting against stuff or taking over directing duties. Maybe not as main character but the dude suffers from being an after thought. We've made a main character out of someone who was supposed to die in the opening ten minutes of the first movie. No wonder they didn't know what to do with him in number two.
I disagree about your take on Star Wars fandom. The original films are the foundation, the heart of Star Wars fandom. It’s the original Big Three of Han, Leia, and Luke, it’s Vader, it’s the TIE Fighters, X-Wings, the Death Star, etc., etc. that have left indelible imprints in pop culture, and which even now, Disney milks for money. Granted the early fandom around the original trilogy wasn’t as vast as it appears to be now, but as I mentioned earlier there was less content for them to gorge and also to sprout more and more fans. Plus, this was pre-Internet and there were less spaces to congregate. I don’t consider the Star Wars novels ‘kids’ stuff’ but of course, that’s my perspective. I think the Heir to the Empire trilogy was well-received and was a New York Times bestselling series, and I don’t think it was just kids buying and reading those books. As well as some of the other Bantam-era books either. (I see their readership being for teens/young adults much like the Star Trek novels. I can assume that Lucasfilm also had more kid-friendly books and comics during this time, but I’m not certain of that). Also, the Star Wars toys was a very big deal in providing a building block for fandom. (There is an episode of Netflix’s The Toys that Made us devoted to those original Star Wars toys). Also, the Ewok films and the Droids cartoon were attempts at all-ages content, and the original films themselves were generally considered all-ages as well. I think Lucas’s ambivalence regarding Star Wars and his other Hollywood ambitions stanched the growth of Star Wars as an all-consuming mega-franchise until the ‘90s, with the Heir to the Empire series, Shadows of the Empire, the Dark Horse comics, and then the Special Editions of the original trilogy showed there was still a lot of interest in Star Wars, which metastasized with the premiere Episode I, and we’ve had a full-blown Star Wars fandom since. The prequels were marketed for the internet age, and Lucas sought to capitalize on the more evolved fandom of the 21st century, and there has been a lot more content put out there during the prequel films and beyond, but I would argue the building blocks were set during the original trilogy time. I’ve only read the first Heir to the Empire book, and I haven’t read other Bantam-era novels, but I think Lucasfilm always played a role there, as well as with the comics, but since there were no movies being made at the time, and Lucas hadn’t figured out what he wanted to do with the property, the creators might have had a little more leeway. I got into Star Wars novels really with the Del Ray era and the New Jedi Order when I know Lucasfilm was involved in shaping some of that series. Good point about there been a hardcore, but small segment of determined prequel haters out there. That being said, I do think there was a general, or accepted, widespread disappointment with the prequels-some of it deserved, and some of it was from a kind of fan groupthink. When it comes to how I think more people consider the prequels now, it’s just an issue of time healing some wounds, there is the remove of time, and also a chance to look at the prequel films with perspective gained from the stuff that come after it. And I do think fandom loves new toys and the prequels aren’t new anymore. Certainly they are still debated, but those debates and arguments aren’t as fresh or hot as they are with the still unfinished sequel trilogy.
For me, a lack of vision comes in with the sequels because I don’t know what this trilogy is supposed to be about. With the original, we saw a fight against tyranny, and the prequels showed how a republic descends into empire. At best, the sequels are just copying the original trilogy’s narrative, though it’s less defined and not well executed. When it comes to deconstruction, it’s not simply a matter of putting characters through hell. Both the prequels and originals did that, but it’s almost a kind of nastiness in the sequels when it comes to the treatment of the original characters. If they aren’t outright shunted to the side like the droids and Chewbacca for the most part, dirt is throw on them, at times overturning or reversing their arcs or growth from the original trilogy. And while they are being torn apart, we are presented with ‘new heroes’ who also aren’t that well developed and are weak substitutes. Why get invested in the new Big Three if they could also get the same depressing treatment down the line that Han, Luke, and Leia did? It’s not that every ending has to be happy or even that someone remain heroic, just I would like their actions/behavior to feel logical and organic since we last saw them in Episode VI, and that whatever changes are made there are good explanations for them. I haven’t seen that with the sequels. When it comes to Luke, I don’t see what Johnson did to him as bold. He basically made him run away from his failure regarding Ben, the same thing we just saw in TFA with Han. With Han I didn’t like it, but I could see it making more sense. With Luke, the literal “New Hope” to lose hope like that, to declare that he couldn’t save his nephew, yet saved Vader who was far more monstrous, and he had fewer emotional ties to, it just didn’t work for me. If we had seen some scenes of Luke fighting and losing against Snoke and Ben, or at least one scene of young Ben doing something so dark that it pushed Luke to light that lightsaber I still wouldn’t care for it, but I could better accept it. There was too much telling and not showing in TLJ, and I think that’s in part because they are making it up as the go along. There’s no overarching vision or goal for these films. I take what Hamill says after getting his hand spanked with grains of salt. The man wants to stay working and he knows its not wise to pick a fight with Disney, so what else would I expect him to say after he initially voiced displeasure with how Johnson handled his character? And who knows what concessions they will make for Hamill in Episode IX or down the road to convince him to get on board? TLJ is made now, it’s part of the Star Wars canon, it was a billion-dollar film, what sense would it make for Hamill to continue griping about it? For me, some films I can still enjoy (on some level) if the world building or costuming is very attention grabbing, though the characters might not be. Admittedly it’s hard, but I have done it before. I didn’t care for Avatar’s characters, but the world building was amazing for example. I also thought the Valerian film was visually interesting, but the characters were wet blankets. Though to your point, I would rather have characters I like to keep me into a franchise as opposed to just whiz-bang visuals because that’s not a long-term recipe for success (i.e. Sam Worthington’s Titans reboot films).
While I do think they've wasted Oscar Isaac in the sequels I'm fine with Rey being the main character. I just wish they would make her more interesting. To Johnson's credit I think he set up some potentially interesting things for Rey, giving her an emotional conflict/sexual tension with Kylo Ren (though she seemed to have gotten over seeing Ren murder Han in front of her pretty easily), but by the end of TLJ that's largely resolved. By making Luke a depressed hermit we missed out on developing a deeper mentor/student relationship, with Rey being separated from Finn, we missed out on developing that friendship/potential romance. And while establishing that Rey's parents were 'nobodies' as a sick burn subversion to all the 'old fans' it literally does back up with Ren says that she really doesn't have a place in this story, which ostensibly is supposed to be her story. Her ties to the Resistance/Rebellion are tenuous at best. There's no Jedi Order anymore-the idea was disparaged by Johnson, I mean Luke, and we are supposed to cheer that a new generation of Force wielders will be growing up out there with the 'legend' of Luke (as if the man who blew up the Death Star, redeemed Vader, helped free the galaxy wasn't already a legend), though without an organization to develop their abilities. There was no call for adventure with the character in TFA. She was waiting on Jakku, she didn't want to leave like Anakin did to be more, and later on a Jedi, or Luke who wanted to go to the Imperial Academy. I think the Rey character wasn't just well conceived. Poe and Finn are even worse. Poe is an after thought, and I find Finn problematic. Though I will say that if Poe was the main character, if they built a Star Wars trilogy around a non-Force user, an X-wing pilot, that would be getting to the kind of different take that the new films like to tout they have embarked on, but haven't really done so.
I will agree that Poe was less developed that perhaps could have been. Unfortunately, this is largely a function of him suppose to die in the crash and not return. Up to you to decide as to the function that could have served in the story. Though, @HugeLobes, that does help solidify a potential character idea. Here is my view on the following. We are deprived of nothing regarding the Luke/Rey relationship thus far. Luke was a mythical being, ostensibly overblown, which is a classic literature trope of the legend who is often less than the legend made him out to be. I do not understand the continual discussion as if Luke is out of the picture to train Rey, when clearly that wasn't the case for Luke and Obi-Wan, or Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. In essence it is a non issue unless Luke doesn't appear in Episode 9, which would surprise me. Rey and Finn can still be a relationship. Largely because these two people have never had normal functioning relationships before. SO, the idea that they should immediately become romantically involved is about as appealing as a high school romance. It sounds nice on paper and yet is psychologically unhealthy. You and I must have watched very different movies then. Her call is much smaller with BB8 and then becomes larger with the Force vision. A call which she rejects, in mythological style, only to be pushed in the story. She now has to find her place in that story. That's the adventure for me is this character not having a clearly defined role and she has to make her way in the galaxy. Now, that might not appeal to all who wanted the clearly defined roles of the myth making, but it appeals to me in a very "coming of age" story and identity formation for that character. That's a fair point, but I don't agree. Luke's failure wasn't just his failure. He saw it as an instinctual reaction that came from the Jedi, and that's demonstrated throughout the saga. I have discussed this in the past, but I'll share it again. A man was once turned in to the Nazi government for being subversive. He survived the concentration camp and was liberated. When he returned home he discovered that his own son had turned him in. The man hung himself after that. Fewer emotional ties often gives us more resolve because Luke had the conviction that he could change Vader. But, here was someone that he had grown up with, knew and had more emotional ties to and the Dark Side still got to him. How deeply that must have wounded Luke! Far from being unbelievable to me it is the most human of reactions.
I didn’t know that Poe was intended to not survive TFA. That at least explains why he got such short shrift in TFA. You make a good point that the relationship between Rey and Luke can continue, with a Force Ghost Luke perhaps. Though I would say we were deprived of a relationship between the two characters in TLJ that would’ve given an after-death continuation more resonance. We got to see more mentorship (dare I say friendship even), among living Jedi or Jedi apprentices in both previous trilogies. TLJ decidedly had Luke mostly sit out on that role, shirking it, as he had shirked decades of duty since (at least Johnson kept that consistent). We didn’t see such a dereliction in either previous trilogy. Obi-Wan was the watchful guardian of Luke on Tatoonine, while on Dagobah, Luke got a short test of patience before being accepted to be a Jedi apprentice. TLJ pushed Luke’s reluctance too far, and then gave us too short a window to see both him and Rey bonding. By the end of the film it was clearly said and shown that Rey had ‘all she needed’ to be a Jedi so what then will really be the point of bringing Luke back from a storytelling perspective, outside of correcting the ‘mistake’ (and I do believe it was a mistake) of his mishandling in TLJ? Rey did pretty well without him, unlike how Jedi training in the past was depicted, which showed that the masters taught, and the students learned. This isn’t a fault of Rey, who wanted that relationship, but how Johnson handled Luke, who rejected it. Albeit, they did give Luke a reason for that (didn’t agree with that either, but he had his reasons). Luke was not an overblown mythological figure. He did play a role in saving the galaxy. He was such a threat that Snoke and Kylo Ren were hunting for him, and Leia knew he could be a game changer in their war against the First Order. That’s not overblown, and it was proven by his actions in the original trilogy. You are right that Rey’s call was smaller, and she did eventually answer it. Though her lack of ties in the overall story, coupled with a lack of strong character development, leave her a nebulous presence in the trilogy thus far. A Deus Ex Machina character. Good point about neither Rey or Finn having normal relationships before, though there is a question of what is a normal relationship. I don’t see a Rey and Finn pairing being any more messed up than other romances/potential romances in Star Wars (Anakin/Padme, Cassian/Jyn, or even Ben/Rey for that matter). I think both Ridley and Boyega have a natural chemistry. With the addition of Rose Tico, I don’t see Rey or Finn becoming more than just friends now. I don’t think Luke’s reaction in TLJ was instinctual to the Jedi at all. Even if you want to compare him to the two best known Order 66 survivors, both didn’t shut themselves off from the Force. They didn’t run away, especially Obi-Wan. And when both received the call, they answered it. Luke did not. Luke left his sister, his family, and the galaxy at the mercy of a powerful dark sider in Snoke, his own nephew, and a resurgent empire. That’s different than having the world ripped from you and the Republic turn against you in the prequels. Throughout the previous films we saw the Jedi get involved a lot, and to that, Luke’s concern about Jedi meddling making a situation worse, okay I’m not a fan of that, but that’s something. However, it doesn’t wash for me because it wasn’t some impersonal, large Jedi Order that was making mistakes, it wasn’t Luke having issues with an establishment (like Anakin arguably did in ROTS), Luke was the establishment. Luke made a mess that he refused to clean up, that he left for others do to, and that didn’t jibe with the character from the original trilogy. Certainly, people change, and people don’t always get better or improve over life, but to do this to such a hopeful, inspirational figure, I wanted a better explanation for why. I mean, his fear about Ben became a self-fulfilling prophecy. So once Ben really did go to the dark-side it was incumbent upon Luke to finish what he almost did at the Jedi Academy for the good of the galaxy. The fact that he chose to have a pity party for years instead doesn’t make sense to me. And that he shut himself off from the Force perhaps because he didn’t want to hear judgment from the Jedi Force ghosts. I think you make a good point about emotional ties when it comes to Luke and Ben, though on the other side of your argument, couldn’t that have compelled Luke to work even harder to redeem Ben? That he would close himself off for years, not even talk to Leia or Han, tell them what he did, so they could at least have that information, it just felt more plot-dictated than organic to the Luke from the original films. And it was never reconciled why he left a way to find him in TFA if he was so adamant about not wanting to be found or get involved in TLJ, which was another example to me of how plot-dictated TLJ was, at the expense of character. To me, Luke's reaction was more about his own guilt, his refusal to make peace with his actions instead of Ben. Ben's subsequent actions proved that Luke's instinct or whatever had been correct, though it does stand to reason if Luke didn't push Ben into fully going to the dark side much faster than he would have, and/or that it made it even harder to potentially redeem him. Luke, who had been one of the more self-sacrificing characters in the original films, became one of the most selfish in the sequels, until the last minute plot-dictated 'save' though after the Resistance had been all but wiped out.
I do not believe you and I will see eye to eye on this. A lot is being thrown at Johnson that I don't agree with, because I think that Luke's reaction is a natural one, as articulated previously. I see Luke as being that mythological hero, but his legend had extended greater, as evidenced by Rey's thinking he was a "myth." Luke clearly has become a "larger than life" figure in the galaxy, if his disappearance is so concerning. Also, why is the relationship between master and apprentice some how stymied by one being a Force Ghost? Isn't that Qui-Gon's role to Obi-Wan in ROTS? Isn't that part of Ezra's and Kanan's journey in Rebels? We see in the films that the Jedi become more powerful after death, yet somehow that diminishes their relationships? I don't follow that. Regardless, I regard Luke, Rey and Finn much more positively than perhaps most. Much of this will be my own reading in to the psychological sub-text of the film. Luke couldn't wholly abandoned everything, despite his desire to do so. So, he left a clue, as people who are desperate and hurting often do. They don't really want to be alone but have no idea how to continue on in wake of the hurt, depression and failure being felt. Which, I'm sorry, Luke is depressed. And that's a big deal. I am generally an optimistic person, have strong spiritual and familial connections, and have been at the place (more than once) of saying "Forget it!" and driving myself off a cliff, hiding away from the world and shutting down. This isn't a pity party-it's psychological pain on a profound level. You keep talking about Luke as the hope of the galaxy-how long shall he carry that burden until he struggles with it? One of his pupils, his own nephew, falls prey to the Dark Side? How much blame would Luke take on himself? I can see the selfish angle, but I also see the deep and profound pain. And I can sympathize with it so I am willing to go with it.
I wish they were actual characters. You look at the original trilogy and Luke, Han, and Leia feel like a bored, naive farm boy, a selfish smuggler, and a self-righteous princess. How they act and speak fits perfectly with who they are. For me, Finn never felt anything like a clone trooper who suddenly developed a sense of self. Rey never felt like she'd spent most of her life homeless, hungry, and abandoned by her family - maybe a bit at the start, but certainly not in her interactions with Han and Finn. Honestly, I kinda think of a Ready Player One style VR game when it comes to Finn and Rey. Especially in TFA, it feels more like they're two people who paid to play the Star Wars Immersive Reality game rather than two actual characters. It's pretty hard to feel anything for them. I think Poe is probably the best character. I like the idea of a fighter pilot who's basically just there for the excitment. He's the only one that actually feels like a real person informed by a proper personality, even if he is a little two-dimensional.
See, I'll disagree because I see those as characters, largely because both have to forge their identity beyond just surviving. I feel more connected to Rey because she has been through a lot of trauma, and has had to survive by her skills alone, yet still comes across as a dreamer. Finn felt like someone who is use to following orders and now has to make up his own mind about how he feels. I love that. I know this will be an agree to disagree moment, but I enjoyed all of the new characters, and want to see them learn and grow and succeed.
I think it's interesting that a lot of critics were initially not really fond of each of the prequel films (a few did like them) but also not much against them, thinking they were OK/average or near-misses and then years later (though less so with RotS) regarding them more like awful disasters.
Success looks differently for different people. Thus far, she does not consider herself a success. But, as I said, we will regard the character differently, so that will vary from person to person.
Okay, but these seem like very idealized versions of what might happen to people going through those experiences. There doesn't seem to be much depth to what they're going through, and everything feels played more for fun and excitment instead of focusing on what these people might actually be feeling. Even taking what you say into account, they feel far more like generic family action movie heroes than people with a real past. This is one reason why Poe works - his character is already perfect for that kind of movie. Even if you think they're acting perfectly in character, they just don't talk the way normal people talk - this is especially true of Finn. It's often that very exaggerated comedic stlye popularized by the Avengers movies. In fact, the actors act in a very exaggerated comedic style that contrasts with previous SW movies. The focus seems to be more on energy than realism. This is basically what happened with JJ's take on Star Trek, especially in the first movie. Kirk didn't feel like a very nuanced character, but he worked well for the fun, fast-paced atmosphere they were going for. I think JJ took the same approach to the new characters. To be clear, I don't think these are bad characters, just kinda shallow ones. I think there's an interesting parallel between Rey and Finn in TFA and Qui Gon in TPM. Many of Qui Gon's decisions and actions are pretty ridiculous, and plenty of people see to think he didn't really belong in the film, but he does at least feel like this stern, dedicated Jedi who has spent decades mastering that way of life. One of my favorite moments from the prequels (granted, there aren't many) is when Qui Gon and Maul are seperated by the force fields and Qui Gon just kneels down and collects himself. It's a great character moment. In contrast, Finn and Rey both have very defined goals and definitely feel like they have a place in the narrative. I just don't think they act like the characters they are supposed to be. Again, I think this works very well for the first film since they fit with the JJ's style, but I also think it explains why some people don't care about those characters as much as they cared about Luke, Han, and Leia. Sorry, couldn't resist!
Which of Qui-Gon's actions and decisions are regarded as pretty ridiculous? I like Poe, but he comes off as a bit one-dimensional and a bit too frantic for my tastes.
I'd link the Red Letter Media review, but I'm pretty sure you're already aware of it. Anyway, it was just for the sake of comparison. I quite like Qui Gon for the reasons given above, but I think the way he acts and talks better reflect his character than the decisions he makes. On the other hand, I could meet Finn and Rey in a bar and just think they were kinda normal (if a little hyperactive). Yeah, I think that works for the new characters.
I don't read or watch the Red Letter Media reviews. And pardon me for asking this, but was Qui-Gon supposed to be perfect? This doesn't even make sense to me. What? Qui-Gon was supposed to be normal? A man who had spent almost all of his life with a religious order?
The Plinkett reviews are pretty funny. Give them a try! Not perfect, but I think many of his actions veer a bit more towards stupid than they should. I'll just agree to disagree with Qui-Gon. That's what I mean, Qui-Gon doesn't just seem like an average guy, which is a good thing. I put that above.
I think it’s okay we don’t see eye-to-eye on this. I think you’re take on Luke is insightful and I wish I could fully see it and feel it the way you do, but I don’t. I don’t think that being a Force Ghost stymies the relationship between Luke and Rey. My concern is that there wasn’t enough groundwork laid to establish a relationship in the first place in TLJ, so throwing the audience a bone with the return of Force Ghost Luke means less to Rey than Obi-Wan’s appearance in TESB or ROTJ did to Luke. Besides, I think the sequel films have made certain to show that Rey needs little assistance, even when she asks for it, and there’s little more that I see Luke teaching her that she can’t find in the books or somehow pull from the Force itself. Force Ghost Luke will be a sop to the fans, a silent apology of sorts for for his misuse-perceived or otherwise-in TLJ. However, it still deprived fans of a chance to see Luke physically kick ass or show off those Jedi powers he learned during the OT and after it. I would argue that we really haven’t seen the Jedi become more powerful after death. Certainly, that’s what Obi-Wan claimed, and to come back from death-in some way-is very powerful indeed, but when it comes to physical interaction in the real world, shaping events and so forth, we haven’t seen that. Neither Force Ghost Jedi Master could help Luke in ROTJ. Force Ghost Qui-Gon (not shown on screen) in ROTS couldn’t, or didn’t, play a physical role in preventing the rise of the Empire. What we saw, with the lightning hitting the tree in TLJ was the best example thus far of a Force Ghost displaying power in the physical world, and it wasn’t much different than the Force lightning that Sidious used. I haven't seen the last season of Rebels so I can't speak on Ezra and Kanan. I think your take on Luke is very affecting. Luke was depressed, and certainly depressed people act ‘irrationally’. Within the context of the Star Wars saga I don’t think enough groundwork-again-was established to show how much of a burden being a galactic hero was on Luke (who in the OT had no problem with that for the most part, then again, he was too busy fighting, surviving, and learning how to be a Jedi to worry about such things), or how he fell so deeply into a well that it took him years to climb out of, if he truly did at all. I found TLJ Luke too jarring a change and one that didn’t feel organic to the last time we saw Luke in ROTJ and then the explanation didn’t feel strong enough either. Compounding that is deadbeat Han, the failed marriage between Han and Leia, the bruising, losing Resistance effort, and I felt they were just piling on just for the heck of it. There is one thing to take on blame, but what about responsibility? Luke claimed a responsibility to redeem his father when it made little sense, but washed his hands of Ben, a monster he helped create? I do think you made a good point though about how Luke was closer to Ben, but to me, that should’ve made Luke redouble his efforts to bring his nephew back to the light. That he would run away like that, that he wouldn’t attempt to redeem his nephew, avenge his fallen students, to defend the New Republic, to stew in his failure, it was just too much. It didn’t fit the character. I have no problem with deeper exploration of psychology, even within Star Wars, but I thought this deconstruction went too far, and was juxtaposed to poor character work when it came to the new trio of heroes. The Star Wars characters were often painted in broad strokes, archetypes instead of fully flesh-and-blood foible mortals and the sequel's attempts to give the OT heroes feet of clay has been clunky. I would rather Lucasfilm built up Rey, Finn, and Poe more than tearing down Luke, Leia, and Han. In hindsight, I would’ve been fine with them placing the sequels 100 years past ROTJ; that would’ve allowed them to kill the past Disney/Lucasfilm seems to disparage so much in TLJ, but not so much that they don’t stop selling OT books, comics, and merchandise.
I do not see this at all, so it is difficult for me to comment. Finn's energy makes sense in an effort to please people and put himself out in very alien situations. It's the equivalent of trying too hard in a new situation. Again, I completely do not see this. I thought Kirk was one of the best characters in Kelvin films because we have a very flawed person, full of potential, who dealt with difficult life circumstances and then jumped in just to prove himself. Not to snip, as I'll right up more later, but this part stood out to me. Honestly, I do not need to see Luke physically kick ass, nor is that the point of the Jedi. So, as a fan, I feel no deprivation and in fact feel the opposite now-Jedi should not be all about physical prowess and lightsaber skill. So, please deprive me of the physicality and give me more spirituality.