Agents of SHIELD: Season 6

[OCD Geek]

Coulson was defending Nazi's as the "School Teacher". Or, to be more accurate, he was trying to pretend that Hydra aren't Nazi's (he must have school books written by Nick Spencer). So, yeah, everyone was basically a Nazi. Just because only two were active and most of the rest were civilian Nazi's doesn't mean shit. Plus, Ward was always a Nazi, and the simulation version was not an actual person, so you can't count him.

Anyone who can defend a show turning even 1 character into a Nazi, well, lets just say either needs to take a long look in the mirror, or is already on that monstrous side. Either way, after this post I'm probably not going to interact with anyone who is even unintentionally defending that kind of thing. You can't argue with people like that.

Only Fitz and May were Nazis in the framework, although I'll give you Coulson. He was spreading Hydra propaganda to kids and did try to turn in Simmons for fear of his own life.

Mace, Ward and Trip were all part of the resistance with Framework Simmons executed by Hydra for refusing to join them and Framework Skye wanting to join the resistance but unsure how to go about it. And Mack was a loving father living under an oppressive fascist regime that he despised and feared...until he too joined said resistance to redeem himself (at the likely cost of his own life) for turning in Daisy. That's six characters not being Nazis, two characters that are Nazis and a third that you could argue is a Nazi collaborator. So two thirds of the characters were fucking fighting the Nazis!!!

As for Framework Ward not being real, I feel that's one of Season 4's only failings. It's made pretty damn clear that Aida's powerful CPU combined with the magic from The Darkhold that she used to create the Framework meant that all of the AI inhabitants of the Framework were 100% sentient beings, but then the show handwaved all of that away at the finish line with a shrug and a "Fuck 'em. They aren't real." mentality. Presumably because the showrunners couldn't think of how to realistically write Mack out of the "I'm staying in the Framework to die with my daughter" corner if Hope was in fact real without Yo-Yo coming across as a complete asshole. I get why they did it, but it's still a wet fart stain on what is otherwise an excellent season and one of the best seasons of superhero television ever produced.

 

[JD]

A piece of shit traitor who tried to destroy SHIELD (all because Admiral Adama was a senile shithead and told him too) is the Director SHIELD deserves at this point. He might want to watch out, though, what with everyone on AoS being turned into a Nazi and those kind of monsters not taking kindly to certain kinds of people (I don't care if it was just in the ripoff Matrix, they're forever Nazi's to me, just like the shitheads who wrote that offensive bullshit). Also, since the show is also a soap opera based on it ripping off Dallas, his evil twin might try to kill him, so that's something else to watch out for.

Thinking about it, since Mack is evil his twin would be Good Mack. Hell, Mack even has facial hair, he's been his own evil twin the whole time. Actually, never mind. That's way too interesting (and non-offensive) for Agents of SHIELD.

Coulson was defending Nazi's as the "School Teacher". Or, to be more accurate, he was trying to pretend that Hydra aren't Nazi's (he must have school books written by Nick Spencer). So, yeah, everyone was basically a Nazi. Just because only two were active and most of the rest were civilian Nazi's doesn't mean shit. Plus, Ward was always a Nazi, and the simulation version was not an actual person, so you can't count him.

Anyone who can defend a show turning even 1 character into a Nazi, well, lets just say either needs to take a long look in the mirror, or is already on that monstrous side. Either way, after this post I'm probably not going to interact with anyone who is even unintentionally defending that kind of thing. You can't argue with people like that.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

As for Framework Ward not being real, I feel that's one of Season 4's only failings. It's made pretty damn clear that Aida's powerful CPU combined with the magic from The Darkhold that she used to create the Framework meant that all of the AI inhabitants of the Framework were 100% sentient beings, but then the show handwaved all of that away at the finish line with a shrug and a "Fuck 'em. They aren't real." mentality. Presumably because the showrunners couldn't think of how to realistically write Mack out of the "I'm staying in the Framework to die with my daughter" corner if Hope was in fact real without Yo-Yo coming across as a complete asshole. I get why they did it, but it's still a wet fart stain on what is otherwise an excellent season and one of the best seasons of superhero television ever produced.

Easily my biggest complaint about what was otherwise so fantastic! I was on a high this entire arc, so I guess it's only natural for some part not to live up to my own hype. They took such great time and care making the Framework REAL to each of the characters but had no way of making that reality work without either making the finale completely depressing by all our characters lamenting that an entire planet of living beings was eliminated or finding some unsatisfying solution like being able to bring some framework people into the real world en masse. Either solution wouldn't have worked narratively, I feel. The whole time I kept thinking, 'There's gotta be a way to save some of these people, otherwise why take the time to make them so real??' They kind of wrote themselves into a corner with making these people real and not being able to address their genocide in a satisfying manner.

Same complaint on the time loop a season later. They spend so much time and care to establish that events are unfolding in the same way as before, and that their attempts to break out of the loop are already built into the loop. It was captivating! The mystery of how in science are these nerds gonna break a time loop, when time is a lattice and the future and past and present all exist at once! It was nice to see a hard time loop like that for once. And then..?? Oh, they managed to break out of the time loop by doing one thing different (when all previous 'different' things they tried were actually, surprise, part of the time loop already), after making a tough choice, and oh, time is fluid and can be changed. There wasn't any satisfying way to break out of an impossible time loop when the story establishes that it shouldn't be possible and then ends up possible just because they did it.

Don't get me wrong. I love AoS. I LOVE IT. I'm so glad its coming back for two more seasons.

 

[kirk55555]

Only Fitz and May were Nazis in the framework, although I'll give you Coulson. He was spreading Hydra propaganda to kids and did try to turn in Simmons for fear of his own life.

Mace, Ward and Trip were all part of the resistance with Framework Simmons executed by Hydra for refusing to join them and Framework Skye wanting to join the resistance but unsure how to go about it. And Mack was a loving father living under an oppressive fascist regime that he despised and feared...until he too joined said resistance to redeem himself (at the likely cost of his own life) for turning in Daisy. That's six characters not being Nazis, two characters that are Nazis and a third that you could argue is a Nazi collaborator. So two thirds of the characters were fucking fighting the Nazis!!!

That doesn't make up for turning people into Nazi's. Making even one character a Nazi makes the people working on the show into scumbags at best. Thankfully the show doesn't have any blatantly Jewish actors/characters, or we would have had a situation like when the shitty comic that inspired this abomination turned fucking Magneto into a Nazi.

As for Framework Ward not being real, I feel that's one of Season 4's only failings. It's made pretty damn clear that Aida's powerful CPU combined with the magic from The Darkhold that she used to create the Framework meant that all of the AI inhabitants of the Framework were 100% sentient beings, but then the show handwaved all of that away at the finish line with a shrug and a "Fuck 'em. They aren't real." mentality. Presumably because the showrunners couldn't think of how to realistically write Mack out of the "I'm staying in the Framework to die with my daughter" corner if Hope was in fact real without Yo-Yo coming across as a complete asshole. I get why they did it, but it's still a wet fart stain on what is otherwise an excellent season and one of the best seasons of superhero television ever produced.

Aida was already bullshit, and the Darkhold is only good in connection to the last good story line in AoS, the Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider stuff. Outside of that, the darkhold was just a bullshit plot device to do whatever idiotic thing they needed it to do.

 

[OCD Geek]

That doesn't make up for turning people into Nazi's. Making even one character a Nazi makes the people working on the show into scumbags at best. Thankfully the show doesn't have any blatantly Jewish actors/characters, or we would have had a situation like when the shitty comic that inspired this abomination turned fucking Magneto into a Nazi.

The show didn't glorify Nazis at all and came down very heavily on the "Nazis are bad" side of things. As a matter of fact, Agents of SHIELD and Supergirl were calling out Trump, the Nazis and White Supremacists that took part in their "Alt-Right" rebranding campaign and any Republicans that went along with their fascist, intolerant bullshit well before it was the cool thing to do.

We had Nazi Fitz, the head of Hydra, talking about how he was going to "make this country great again". We had Coulson going on live TV to counter Hyrda's "alternative facts" and rally Americans against their current regime's policy to put a segment of the population in concentration camps, sadly predicting the Trump Administration's use of concentration camps for illegal immigrants. And I'm pretty sure there was a "and yet she persisted" in the mix too. All that in episodes that aired from April to May 2017 (and were filmed well beforehand). I loved the show for this and was glad that they were extremely unsubtle about the real world parallels they were making (I love the shit out of that "subtle as a sledgehammer" approach that George Romero and David Cronenberg are known for.), but I guess it was too subtle for you somehow.

Aida was already bullshit, and the Darkhold is only good in connection to the last good story line in AoS, the Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider stuff. Outside of that, the darkhold was just a bullshit plot device to do whatever idiotic thing they needed it to do.

You mean the ancient magic book from the comics that can do anything and brings doom to those who study it was used on the show as an ancient magic book that can do anything and brings doom to those who study it!? I hope they didn't give it a stupid name like the Necronomicon.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

You mean the ancient magic book from the comics that can do anything and brings doom to those who study it was used on the show as an ancient magic book that can do anything and brings doom to those who study it!? I hope they didn't give it a stupid name like the Necronomicon.

As far as all-powerful magic comic book devices go, AoS made me want to read that damn book really bad.

 

[OCD Geek]

As far as all-powerful magic comic book devices go, AoS made me want to read that damn book really bad.

It was a brilliant plot device. Its powerful corrupting influence allowed the showrunners to have their cake and eat it too. These weren't just villains. They were people we cared about. The Aida and Radcliffe that we knew and loved were still in there, but the Darkhold had taken a legitimate desire of theirs (Aida's desire to be treated as an equal to humanity and seen as part of the team and Radcliffe's desire to save his terminally ill love from death) and twisted them into darker versions of themselves. It allowed that final "Agents of Hydra" arc to play out as a tragedy. Radcliffe ultimately overcame the mystical influence and reclaimed his former self, while Aida was forever lost to it.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

^ Radcliffe is my favorite recurring character that AoS has produced sor far. I loved how much they were able to do with him in such a short time. His last scene really got me. At least they were able to get some dramatic mileage out of the digital clones idea with his death, staring out into the sunset.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

All of that and he was played by the brilliant John Hannah.

 

[Gaith]

That doesn't make up for turning people into Nazi's.

Why do you keep putting an apostrophe in the plural of that word?

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

All of that and he was played by the brilliant John Hannah.

I knew had I seen him in a few things before but I didn't really *know* this actor until it dawned on my that I loved him in Sliding Doors. Indeed, I was not expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

 

[kirk55555]

The show didn't glorify Nazis at all and came down very heavily on the "Nazis are bad" side of things. As a matter of fact, Agents of SHIELD and Supergirl were calling out Trump, the Nazis and White Supremacists that took part in their "Alt-Right" rebranding campaign and any Republicans that went along with their fascist, intolerant bullshit well before it was the cool thing to do.

We had Nazi Fitz, the head of Hydra, talking about how he was going to "make this country great again". We had Coulson going on live TV to counter Hyrda's "alternative facts" and rally Americans against their current regime's policy to put a segment of the population in concentration camps, sadly predicting the Trump Administration's use of concentration camps for illegal immigrants. And I'm pretty sure there was a "and yet she persisted" in the mix too. All that in episodes that aired from April to May 2017 (and were filmed well beforehand). I loved the show for this and was glad that they were extremely unsubtle about the real world parallels they were making (I love the shit out of that "subtle as a sledgehammer" approach that George Romero and David Cronenberg are known for.), but I guess it was too subtle for you somehow.

Supergirl is the same show that hired a rabidly prejudiced nutbag to play Mon-El's Dad, so they lost the moral high ground a long time ago. As for calling stuff out, anyone who wasn't a monster was calling out a lot of that stuff (especially the rise of white supremacist stuff in the mainstream) before the Fanta Facist was even elected, so don't try to say they were "doing it before it was cool". Doing it with the subtly of a sledgehammer maybe, but neither Supergirl nor AoS were trendy, outside of maybe in the area of broadcast tv shows doing it.

To be fair to Supergirl, Marvel TV and Marvel Comics are under the control of Ike "We literally only have a current picture of him because he recently spent time following Trump around like a minion" Perlmutter, so Supergirl at least has the advantage of not being technically controlled by someone working for the side the Nazi's support. Unlike Agents of SHIELD, who (even if he doesn't have much or anything to do with it) is technically run by a crony of the thing they say they're against. There is a reason that Marvel turned a bunch of people into Nzi's on both TV and Comics, and it wasn't to make a statement. If Disney had full control over it, there almost certainly wouldn't have been no Nazi story arc in either the comics or agents of SHIELD.

So, yeah, your defense is BS. At best, AoS turned characters into Nazis to shock people, at worst its because they're ultimately under the umbrella of the section of Marvel controlled by an old shithead that Disney is just waiting to die so they can finally fully take over the parts of Marvel he got to keep control of when they bought it, and that shithead in question supports the same people that current Nazi's do, even if he's not specifically one of them. The half assed attempts by the writers to go against real life monsters doesn't change the fact that they turned characters into nazis. That is irredeemably evil, full stop.

You mean the ancient magic book from the comics that can do anything and brings doom to those who study it was used on the show as an ancient magic book that can do anything and brings doom to those who study it!? I hope they didn't give it a stupid name like the Necronomicon.

The Necronimicon did specific things that all kind of shared a theme. The Darkhold would have regrown Coulson's hair if the writer felt that needed to be a plot point, because it literally did everything. It meant the writers didn't even need to write anything, because they could just say "The darkhold did it".

 

[Tuskin38]

Supergirl is the same show that hired a rabidly prejudiced nutbag to play Mon-El's Dad, so they lost the moral high ground a long time ago. As for calling stuff out, anyone who wasn't a monster was calling out a lot of that stuff (especially the rise of white supremacist stuff in the mainstream) before the Fanta Facist was even elected, so don't try to say they were "doing it before it was cool". Doing it with the subtly of a sledgehammer maybe, but neither Supergirl nor AoS were trendy, outside of maybe in the area of broadcast tv shows doing it.

To be fair to Supergirl, Marvel TV and Marvel Comics are under the control of Ike "We literally only have a current picture of him because he recently spent time following Trump around like a minion" Perlmutter, so Supergirl at least has the advantage of not being technically controlled by someone working for the side the Nazi's support. Unlike Agents of SHIELD, who (even if he doesn't have much or anything to do with it) is technically run by a crony of the thing they say they're against. There is a reason that Marvel turned a bunch of people into Nzi's on both TV and Comics, and it wasn't to make a statement. If Disney had full control over it, there almost certainly wouldn't have been no Nazi story arc in either the comics or agents of SHIELD.

So, yeah, your defense is BS. At best, AoS turned characters into Nazis to shock people, at worst its because they're ultimately under the umbrella of the section of Marvel controlled by an old shithead that Disney is just waiting to die so they can finally fully take over the parts of Marvel he got to keep control of when they bought it, and that shithead in question supports the same people that current Nazi's do, even if he's not specifically one of them. The half assed attempts by the writers to go against real life monsters doesn't change the fact that they turned characters into nazis. That is irredeemably evil, full stop.



The Necronimicon did specific things that all kind of shared a theme. The Darkhold would have regrown Coulson's hair if the writer felt that needed to be a plot point, because it literally did everything. It meant the writers didn't even need to write anything, because they could just say "The darkhold did it".

You are so closed minded.

Why do you keep responding if you hate the show so much? Why keep talking about it. It seems pointless when all you do is just repeat yourself over and over.

 

[OCD Geek]

Doing it with the subtly of a sledgehammer maybe, but neither Supergirl nor AoS were trendy, outside of maybe in the area of broadcast tv shows doing it.

So we agree then. Supergirl and Agents of SHIELD were very notably among the few broadcast TV shows to be that boldly outspoken at the time. Cool. Isn't it nice when we find common ground?

To be fair to Supergirl, Marvel TV and Marvel Comics are under the control of Ike "We literally only have a current picture of him because he recently spent time following Trump around like a minion" Perlmutter, so Supergirl at least has the advantage of not being technically controlled by someone working for the side the Nazi's support. Unlike Agents of SHIELD, who (even if he doesn't have much or anything to do with it) is technically run by a crony of the thing they say they're against.

So you're now seriously arguing that the showrunner's boss (Jeph Loeb)'s boss being an infamous Trump supporter and Nazi collaborator (who notoriously has Marvel Television in a death grip and personally forced Agents of SHIELD's showrunners to spend three seasons setting up his failed Inhumans series) somehow makes Maurissa Tancharoen & Jed Whedon and Jeffrey Bell's early, extremely vocal ant-Trump/Nazi stance less bold and noteworthy!?

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[kirk55555]

So we agree then. Supergirl and Agents of SHIELD were very notably among the few broadcast TV shows to be that boldly outspoken at the time. Cool. Isn't it nice when we find common ground?

Its not something to brag about. My dog could write that stuff more subtly and more effectively.

So you're now seriously arguing that the showrunner's boss (Jeph Loeb)'s boss being an infamous Trump supporter and Nazi collaborator (who notoriously has Marvel Television in a death grip and personally forced Agents of SHIELD's showrunners to spend three seasons setting up his failed Inhumans series) somehow makes Maurissa Tancharoen & Jed Whedon and Jeffrey Bell's early, extremely vocal ant-Trump/Nazi stance less bold and noteworthy!?

I'm saying that making your own characters into Nazi's to supposedly prove a point makes the showrunner/writers assholes at best, and that Perlmutter being in charge is probsbly why so many employees of both divisions seem pretty gung ho to make established good guys into Nazi's.Turning one good guy into a Nazi is an irredeemable act (and alternate universe versions don't count, which is why I don't complain about CW's Earth X stuff, because evil alternate universe dopplegangers are a totally different thing).

Also, the Inhumans stuff in AoS was generally excellent. As an Inhuman fan, I enjoyed what AoS did with it, even if I consider the Inhumans show itself to be possibly the worst TV product made from a Marvel property (although Iron Fist might technically be worse, me being a fan of the comic Inhumans makes their TV show the worse production for me). The show doing Inhuman/Skye's parents stuff was probably my favorite plot on the show, with Ghost Rider being a close second. The original Hydra stuff was also pretty good, but it should have been over when the Winter Soldier tie in stuff was over. The Nazi matrix stuff and the Dallas but with Time Travel plots are basically as bad as the Inhumans TV show was, but for different reasons. To be fair, the early seasons also had the Fake SHIELD plot, which is also really fucking terrible but not as bad as the Nazi stuff and what came after the Nazi stuff.

 

[Gaith]

Nazi's

THAT'S NO PLACE FOR AN APOSTROPHE, guy. Do you have me on Ignore, or do you hate English?!

 

[RJDiogenes]

Clearly that apostrophe is a collaborator.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

THAT'S NO PLACE FOR AN APOSTROPHE, guy. Do you have me on Ignore, or do you hate English?!

That would require admitting he was wrong and we all know that will never happen.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In the 19th century, 's was an accepted way of forming plurals for words borrowed from foreign languages [Lynn Truss. Eats, Shoots & Leaves. pp. 63–65.]. Nowadays, it's an error called the greengrocer's apostrophe.

<the_more_you_know.gif>

 

[JD]

I thought of something earlier today, could they have written Coulson (and May) out of at least the early episode of the next season of AoS, so he could go film Captain Marvel?