Holodeck query

[marlboro]

Why bother with a comparatively clumsy EMH fumbling through a surgery when you could have holographic medical nanotechnology?

Now we just need to teach the nanites to sing Verdi...

 

[The Old Mixer]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation_Technical_Manual

The holodeck utilizes two main subsystems, the holographic imagery subsystem and the matter conversion subsystem. The holographic imagery subsection creates the realistic background environments. The matter conversion subsystem creates physical "props" from the starship's central raw matter supplies.

Other stimuli, such as sound, smell, and taste, are either simulated by more traditional methods, such as speakers or atomizers, or built into the created objects using replicator techniques.

 

[Captain Rob]

^^ There you go.
I could see the Doctor intentionally making himself smell like a really bad variant of Old Spice. Subconsciously making his patients want to stay careful and healthy and not need to visit him.

 

[Delta Vega]

The holodeck is probably the least most likely thing in Trek that will ever be a reality, in my opinion
I'll even concede the transporter, and warp drive, someday.....SOMEDAY, becoming real thing
But not the holodeck

 

[Tim Thomason]

The holodeck is probably the least most likely thing in Trek that will ever be a reality, in my opinion
I'll even concede the transporter, and warp drive, someday.....SOMEDAY, becoming real thing
But not the holodeck

A holodeck is pretty pointless once we figure out true VR and how to stimulate our brains into accepting we are in a different reality with limitless potential.

 

[Smellmet]

The holodeck is probably the least most likely thing in Trek that will ever be a reality, in my opinion
I'll even concede the transporter, and warp drive, someday.....SOMEDAY, becoming real thing
But not the holodeck

Really? I think it's the most likely. Yeah we're starting to get better with VR now, but just look at the progress games have made in the last 20 years, imagine another 300 years. The holodeck is the logical conclusion to this progress, or at least something similar. It wouldn't surprise me if we had something like this within 50-100 years tops.

 

[marlboro]

A holodeck is pretty pointless once we figure out true VR and how to stimulate our brains into accepting we are in a different reality with limitless potential.

I think Rick James may have already figured this one out circa 1978.

 

[at Quark's]

To go back to the original question, the only reference to smell on the holodeck that I know of is in The Big Goodbye, as I said earlier. Interestingly, as far as I know this is the same episode where it is first explicitly established that holodeck characters cannot leave the holodeck. In fact we see the mob characters step out of the holodeck, talk for a few moments and only then dissolve slowly, from the feet up. I am inclined to believe that at this point in the series, this restriction applied more to characters than matter, since in an even earlier episode we see Wesley dripping with holodeck water in the corridors.

We really see the notion that objects/matter disappear the very moment they cross the threshold of the holodeck only later (in ship in a bottle for example, when Picard throws the book through the holodeck door and it immediately fizzles out of existence). He still held the book before throwing it though, so obviously it was "more" than an image but "less" than a real replicated book. So perhaps the idea that the holodeck creates "holographic matter" besides real matter and imagery is from a later point in the series, and this early in the series it was only thought to generate real matter and imagery on the wall - but holodeck driven characters still were dependent on the holodeck equipment for their "survival". T

Perhaps that's also the reason we never hear stuff like scents on the holodeck referenced again, because they would have gotten into some very tricky territory with that. Though I still don't see why scents and odours couldn't simply have been replicated real matter.

 

[Timo]

It should be remembered that the holodeck is there for a purpose, and that purpose is to please the user. The device really bends over backward to achieve this, including trying to the best of its ability to do the impossible.

Cyrus Redblock is a user at the point of the adventure where he wants to venture outside. He can't go out, but he wants to, and that's all that matters. So rather than cease to project him into the corridor, the holodeck does what it can - perhaps smoothly replace some of the forcefield Redblock with replicated matter, perhaps install invisible forcefield mirrors so that the illusion can be projected around corners. Ultimately, it all fails, and the holodeck has to resort to its anti-depression subroutine so as not to crash altogether.

But were a non-user like a stupid chair to attempt to leave the holodeck, there would be none of this effort. And indeed if the user wanted the chair to disappear at the doorframe, the chair would do exactly that. Just like Data's holo-rock would hit the holo-wall in "Encounter at Farpoint" for obvious and well-semaphored demonstration purposes, but would arch away to the horizon if that were the android's intent.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

Except that Cyrus Redblock isn't a user of the holodeck, he's a character. I would think it a minimal safety feature in the holodeck that wishes are obeyed only from "real" users, not from what any holodeck character wants even if he/she would become aware from the fact he is on a holodeck.

Or else we'd have to concede that in some sense Cyrus became the first real holodeck sentience, even before Moriarty or Minuette.

Your rock throwing example brings up an interesting conundrum in Ship in a bottle. In it, Data throws his commbadge towards the "warp core", and we see it sizzle. Moriarty obviously desired the holodeck concealing it was a holodeck to the "real" users (even communications to outside the holodeck were faked), whereas Data desired to show it was a holodeck. How would the holodeck know which wish to obey?

 

[SPCTRE]

I'm sorry, but dank holodeck is canon

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I think Rick James may have already figured this one out circa 1978.

There are also the wireheads from Larry Niven's Known Space works and a version of direct brain-induced VR is described in A C Clarke's "The City and the Stars", written in 1956. However, the earliest reference that I've found to this form of VR technology in SF literature is the 1933 short-story series "The Man Who Awoke" by Laurence Manning.

 

[Timo]

Except that Cyrus Redblock isn't a user of the holodeck, he's a character. I would think it a minimal safety feature in the holodeck that wishes are obeyed only from "real" users, not from what any holodeck character wants even if he/she would become aware from the fact he is on a holodeck.

Yet we subsequently learn that giving user privileges to characters is a thing, and was done with Moriarty. Here it simply happens by accident, as the Jarada probe tickles the computer the exact wrong way.

Or else we'd have to concede that in some sense Cyrus became the first real holodeck sentience, even before Moriarty or Minuette.

The real implication here is that "sentience" is just a box the computer will tick either at direct user request or then simply to best accommodate the unvoiced needs of the user.

Or more like a slider, really, with every character possessing the required amount of sentience (some might also be given to things like "randomly" breaking waves so that they can intervene at the perfect romantic moment during the beach simulation). Ultimately, it's the computer itself that is sentient, probably far more so than any of the users, and can dish out bits of its wisdom to its various avatars as needed.

Your rock throwing example brings up an interesting conundrum in Ship in a bottle. In it, Data throws his commbadge towards the "warp core", and we see it sizzle. Moriarty obviously desired the holodeck concealing it was a holodeck to the "real" users (even communications to outside the holodeck were faked), whereas Data desired to show it was a holodeck. How would the holodeck know which wish to obey?

This I guess is the ultimate challenge for the computer. Emulating human sentience is trivial for a great thinker like that. Choosing between conflicting demands for attention... Now that's more like marriage, and the computer is likely to go mad sooner or later unless it starts believing in an acceptable failure rate.

Remarkably, Moriarty originally was not a malfunction, but a simple user error. The computer chose to please LaForge rather than remind him of safety concerns (because the holodeck strives to be enjoyed but not heard and indeed almost invariably succeeds), after which the safety concerns were realized and Moriarty became a "superuser" beyond the control of other users. The computer could no doubt sense the discomfort levels of the other users there; I wouldn't wonder if it declared himself an enemy of Moriarty, secretly swearing to give him inferior service if the opportunity arose! It is built to be petty like that, or at least emulate being petty, as when interrupting Data's babbling...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

Yet we subsequently learn that giving user privileges to characters is a thing, and was done with Moriarty.

Yes, but if I recall correctly, only after Moriarty was acknowledged as a newly created life form, and a great fuss was made out of that by Picard. DS9 and Voyager seem to have gotten somewhat more relaxed about it.

The real implication here is that "sentience" is just a box the computer will tick either at direct user request or then simply to best accommodate the unvoiced needs of the user.

No argument there, this is evidenced multiple times. Though it is weird that Picard assigns such a heavy weight to it if it can be done that easily. I'd think that internal consistenty would demand that either it shouldn't be such a big deal to create new sentience (or sapience) or it should be made harder to do so. Or is Picard the only person in the Star Trek universe who gives a **** ?

Or more like a slider, really, with every character possessing the required amount of sentience (some might also be given to things like "randomly" breaking waves so that they can intervene at the perfect romantic moment during the beach simulation). Ultimately, it's the computer itself that is sentient, probably far more so than any of the users, and can dish out bits of its wisdom to its various avatars as needed.

This I guess is the ultimate challenge for the computer. Emulating human sentience is trivial for a great thinker like that. Choosing between conflicting demands for attention... Now that's more like marriage, and the computer is likely to go mad sooner or later unless it starts believing in an acceptable failure rate.

And at the same time, the computer is never acknowledged as sentient. It isn't even expected to do anything except what it's supposed to do, it is treated as Starfleet property. A great deal is made about the rights of entities like Data, and later, about possible holographic intelligences, but Trek remains eerily silent about the rights of sentient ship's computers (assuming that they are, like you say).

Or perhaps they like it that way. Not being disturbed with more than trivial demands from the miniature infestation on board, free to think their own deep thoughts 99.9999% of their capacity/time ….