Spoilers The Witchfinders grade and discussion thread

[jaime]

Pertwee yes, because he was stuck and trying to leave. But as for the rest of the Classic series? Not really an arc.

Whitaker has as much “feel” as any other Doctor of the Classic series. In the Classic series, the Doctor rarely had anything going on internally. He basically was all external. Which was very much TV at that time.

Pertwee was also the Doctor brought down by arrogance and had the Buddhist themes underlying his final stuff (the crystal from metebelis was seeded long before...yes, it’s all a bit made up as gone along, but stuff was seeded in case they needed it later) Baker...nothing at the beginning beyond the Toulouse Lautrec bohemian, but later it gets a bit bound up in Time Lord politics and the Guardians...and the overall arc of dealing with reborn master that ties up with that. Davison is the ‘feckless’ Doctor, Who is actually about innocence and naivety (not to mention the hidden face beneath, highlighted by his ‘idiot’ nature in Kinda.) and is ultimately about sacrifice. The sixth had the planned arc that we see again with Capaldi...he’s nuts, and very alien, steps over a corpse, cries at a butterfly. The Dalek arc that arguably inspires the Time War is in this time, carrying through fourth fifth and sixth, and the Doctor as angry agent of the Time Lords is more pronounced in the sixths run...not to mention his trial. The Seventh certainly has an arc, but it only really solidifies once Cartmel gets his feet under the table. It’s best summed up as Times Champion, and Ace certainly has a massive arc, all of which seeds growth in the later novels. Now, the TV series cant fully address the novels, but nor can it ignore them...and it’s here that the simpler characterisation really sheds its chrysalis. The new Doctor feels like an attempt to put the genie back in its bottle, and I am not sure it’s working. The show has fifty years of history, the character has a couple of thousand, pretending it’s not there, that almost nothing is, doesn’t entirely work anymore.

 

[Redfern]

@tomalak301 , one could argue it was the "adventure", the sense of "What's gonna' happen next? How will the Doctor and companion(s) escape? What kind of 'bogeyman' will appear this week?'' Without disparaging the property, did we wonder what were Indiana Jones' internal motivations in the original movie other than, "I can't let the Nazis get hold of the Ark to use as a super weapon!"? Okay, true, he felt horrible when he feared Marion died in the truck explosion. Well, even the "classic" Doctors would react similarly (though without drowning his misery in booze) when he believed something happened to his friends. Tom's Doctor turns ashen when he thought Sarah and Harry were in the Thal city dome when it was nuked. Yet, we didn't know any of his "secrets". But he can be shown to care.

If my statements are a tad disjointed, I'm replying during quiet moments at work, hurriedly trying to express myself between tasks.

 

[tomalak301]

@tomalak301 , one could argue it was the "adventure", the sense of "What's gonna' happen next? How will the Doctor and companion(s) escape? What kind of 'bogeyman' will appear this week?'' Without disparaging the property, did we wonder what were Indiana Jones' internal motivations in the original movie other than, "I can't let the Nazis get hold of the Ark to use as a super weapon!"? Okay, true, he felt horrible when he feared Marion died in the truck explosion. Well, even the "classic" Doctors would react similarly (though without drowning his misery in booze) when he believed something happened to his friends. Tom's Doctor turns ashen when he thought Sarah and Harry were in the Thal city dome when it was nuked. Yet, we didn't know any of his "secrets". But he can be shown to care.

If my statements are a tad disjointed, I'm replying during quiet moments at work, hurriedly trying to express myself between tasks.

I haven't seen Indiana Jones in a long time, but doesn't Indy also go through character growth, especially with his father and his girlfriend in the movies? I'm not expecting internal struggles all the time, but I would say having that struggle makes it easier to relate to the character and to allow character development to happen. Also, I'm sorry but I find the adventure aspect of Season 11 kind of lacking so far. Kerblam actually did feel like a sense of adventure and that was probably my favorite episode of the season so far.

 

[Lonemagpie]

That was decent - DW goes a little bit folk horror. Alan Cumming was overplaying it a bit, but I loved his doublet and want a piece like that for my SCA garb. At least the villain got offed, though the aliens were a biit rubbish - as was the last act exposition-fest - the zombie villagers were much better as zombie villagers. Lots of nice touches to other bits of witchy subgenre too (The Ash Tree, Sleepy Hollow, lots of stuff) Oh, and Jodie even varied her sonicking stance at last.

 

[Redfern]

True,Tomalak, once those films were produced. One could debate I'm "moving the goalpost", but I was thinking about the original movie, before the others were made. That first one was pretty much a straight up homage to the RKO serials. Beyond the hint of a past relationship with Marion, we didn't really know anything about Indy, but did that dampen our enjoyment of the "rollercoaster ride" of an adventure? Well, it didn't bother me, anyway. I can't really speak for others.

 

[tomalak301]

True,Tomalak, once those films were produced. One could debate I'm "moving the goalpost", but I was thinking about the original movie, before the others were made. That first one was pretty much a straight up homage to the RKO serials. Beyond the hint of a past relationship with Marion, we didn't really know anything about Indy, but did that dampen our enjoyment of the "rollercoaster ride" of an adventure? Well, it didn't bother me, anyway. I can't really speak for others.

That's true, even though Indiana Jones at the time didn't have the history and the gravitas as Doctor Who did.

 

[jaime]

True,Tomalak, once those films were produced. One could debate I'm "moving the goalpost", but I was thinking about the original movie, before the others were made. That first one was pretty much a straight up homage to the RKO serials. Beyond the hint of a past relationship with Marion, we didn't really know anything about Indy, but did that dampen our enjoyment of the "rollercoaster ride" of an adventure? Well, it didn't bother me, anyway. I can't really speak for others.

For me it’s what makes the movie rewatchable. I particularly love the whole boat scene for some reason. There’s hints at past all the way through Raiders, and it’s far far from burying the adventure aspect. It’s what let’s ‘kids entertainment’ carry through to adult enjoyment. When I was young, Indy is about action and bashing nazis and whatnot, when I was a bit older, there’s the backstory,the way it’s woven, the getting the girl and (sort of) saving the day, then as an adult all that is there and weaving better...you can see the emotion, sense the history between Indy and Marion, there’s a depth to it.
If you don’t have that, then it’s a much much less resonant film, and arguably, its those details that elevate popcorn flicks to classics. A bit of heart. Soul.

Even if the stories have it this year in spades, and the companions have it in places...though ladled on rather thickly from the start and all the more artificial because of that story choice in its unfolding...the Doctor themself seems a little lacking. Needs a little range. A little something. Even the eighth got than in his one televised adventure...a little soul. Shoes fitting perfectly, but also Madame Butterfly, Who am I, pleading for someone to trust him because he’s wounded or in danger, holding himself hostage....little things that said a lot without stopping the story (such as it was). This year feels...thin.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Amazed yet again that the Doctor just randomly sent one of her companions off into potential danger (Yas in this instance)!

Yeah, that surprised me as well. Not quite as bad as Ryan in "Rosa" but still eyebrow rising. On the other hand, The Doctor's companions have always been notorious about wandering off (see Ninth's rant in "The Empty Child"), so perhaps she decided to be proactive by giving them missions to do instead of just wandering off.

Amazed yet again that the Doctor just randomly sent one of her companions off into potential danger (Yas in this instance)!

One thing I did really like was Willa and King James watching the Tardis leave. I know we've seen it a million times but it's still funny.[/QUOTE]
I'll never get tired of that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The other reason that Ryan should have settled in the past: The Bicycle won't be invented for another two centuries.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Having not watched the classic series, what is the appeal of Doctor Who if there was no connection to the characters. I mean when I first started watching the series, the first episode I saw took place at the end of the World, and they were blasting Britney Spears Toxic in one scene. I'm not sure why I decided to continue the series, but I was intregued to the point where I watched episode 1 and watched the series ever sense. Throughout the season, we got to see that chemistry between the Doctor and Rose flourish and I think it was Eccleston himself that made me keep watching, but we got see him develop and face his demons head on, to the point where before he regenerates he said he and Rose were fantastic.

That's what I mean by character growth. If the characters don't grow, then the show rides on the plot and external forces. If those are not good, then the show is not good, so I was just curious if the Doctor was a cypher in the old series, what was the appeal to keep coming back and make this franchise the long lasting show it has become?

For me the appeal was the strange circumstances the characters found themselves in, the cliffhangers and the scares. It wasn’t really about exploring a character, it was situational. Which was part and parcel for TV of that era.

 

[Professor Zoom]

True,Tomalak, once those films were produced. One could debate I'm "moving the goalpost", but I was thinking about the original movie, before the others were made. That first one was pretty much a straight up homage to the RKO serials. Beyond the hint of a past relationship with Marion, we didn't really know anything about Indy, but did that dampen our enjoyment of the "rollercoaster ride" of an adventure? Well, it didn't bother me, anyway. I can't really speak for others.

One could argue Indiana moves from non believer to believer in Raiders, but then the prequel, Temple of Doom, mucks that up because of magic there.

It’s the challenge of franchises, how do you keep the main character going without much change—because audiences don’t really want change—but create some illusion of change.

That’s what TV was like for most of its existence. It’s only in the past few years that TV shows can be finite and allow characters to change. (Personally, I think we owe a lot to Babylon 5, speaking of characters changing and growing...)

 

[BritishSeaPower]

"The Witchfinders" is not an example of in media res just because the episode started outside of the TARDIS. In media res is when the plot starts in the middle of the story, skipping over significant exposition, often utilizing flashbacks or extensive dialogue to fill in the viewer. Examples of in media res are Hamlet, The Usual Suspects, and numerous episodes of The West Wing such as "What Kind of Day Has It Been" and "Manchester." Or to use a Doctor Who example, "Day of the Moon."

From a literal perspective, as the Doctor does not precipitate the situation it existed before she came on stage, walks into it blindly in full swing, with no real explanation for what exactly Willa and the others accused of witchcraft have done/didn't do until much later in the plot, it certainly fits enough of the hallmarks to be somewhat in media res.

For example, we do not have - as may have been in classic and some RTD episodes - a cold open of the tree being cut down or the the actual accusation. I actually do wish more stories in the series happened in true in media res fashion rather than the Doctor arriving on scene as the plot so happens to begin.

But yes, my conversational cheat needed to be corrected. ;-)

 

[The Wormhole]

Enjoyable episode, mostly for Alan Cumming hamming it up as King James, and his constant not so subtle attempts to score with Ryan. It does suffer a bit from the alien end of things being generic run of the mill Who stuff.

 

[BritishSeaPower]

I should note, again, BBC America showed the "series trailer" in place of a next time for "It Takes You Away." No big deal, but an oddity. As well, the interrupters - the clips that they show from the very episode you're watching that are meant to stop you from fast forwarding through the ads on DVR - showed clips from previous episodes.

 

[Refuge]

From 7.225 overnights to 5.66 - that's a pretty sizeable drop of 1.565. I did wonder if that would happen after Kablam!. Still strong for terrestrial these days, mind, and for all we know a lot more people watched it via catch-up or streaming services this time.

Do you mean more people watched this one episode via catch-ups or streaming as compared to just the one previously??

 

[CuriousCaitian]

Do you mean more people watched this one episode via catch-ups or streaming as compared to just the one previously??

I meant the sharp drop in broadcast viewing figures for The Witchfinders after the small ones of the last few episodes could at least be partly explained by a lot more people choosing to watch the show elsewhere, like iPlayer or Amazon. Just a speculation, and sorry if it wasn't clear.

It could also be that Kablam!'s particularly dark last act turn put a lot of people off, but that's also just speculation. It's just odd to me that an idle thought of mine came true, and I'm curious as to why.

 

[tomalak301]

For me the appeal was the strange circumstances the characters found themselves in, the cliffhangers and the scares. It wasn’t really about exploring a character, it was situational. Which was part and parcel for TV of that era.

That kind of goes with my point though. If you're not going to develop characters then the whole show rides on the plot. If the plots are not interesting (and I feel most of them in season 11 haven't been) then that doesn't make for a good show. Who needs it's adventure back.

 

[Refuge]

I meant the sharp drop in broadcast viewing figures for The Witchfinders after the small ones of the last few episodes could at least be partly explained by a lot more people choosing to watch the show elsewhere, like iPlayer or Amazon. Just a speculation, and sorry if it wasn't clear.

It could also be that Kablam!'s particularly dark last act turn put a lot of people off, but that's also just speculation. It's just odd to me that an idle thought of mine came true, and I'm curious as to why.

You're fine. Not being part of these figures (outside the UK) makes them as a yardstick less personal if you like.

It's always better if a viewing trend goes upwards, this is true. I feel the show needs to go big universe again. It's way too parochial. I wonder if some viewers read King James and thought - oh shit history time again.

 

[Professor Zoom]

That kind of goes with my point though. If you're not going to develop characters then the whole show rides on the plot. If the plots are not interesting (and I feel most of them in season 11 haven't been) then that doesn't make for a good show. Who needs it's adventure back.

Yeah, I agree. Indiana Jones has a cool character, but, we're not watching those movies for the cool exploration of character. Like Bond, he's more or less frozen in time. (Which was my frustration with Kingdom... What if he didn't wear the hat? Or use the whip? Does everyone where the same things for 20 years?)

We disagree about the success of the plots this season. For the most part, I've been happy with them. I'm certainly happy to leave the wink winkiness of Moffat's "clever" plotting behind. I'm more or less happy with the episodic nature, as it's given me time to get to know the cast. But, what's interesting, most of the cast have something going on, grief is a big one... but, not the Doctor. She seems to be lacking something. She's the friend that's taking them away from troubles... But, she's not quite a blank slate... she has a personality, she's brave, she's kind, she's smart, she's curious... but, unlike the other modern Doctors, she doesn't have an internal need. That I'm missing a little.

I'm curious what they will do differently in the New Years Special and in the next series... please, please, a new Tardis interior... I literally have never hated an interior... until this one.

 

[jaime]

You're fine. Not being part of these figures (outside the UK) makes them as a yardstick less personal if you like.

It's always better if a viewing trend goes upwards, this is true. I feel the show needs to go big universe again. It's way too parochial. I wonder if some viewers read King James and thought - oh shit history time again.

Some probably thought religion and stayed away. Some thought attack on religion and stayed away. Some saw cumming plus likely gay king and stayed away (though some saw those and bought popcorn.)
I think you are on the nose though....historically, historicals don’t do well. It’s why they had their last real sputter in Black Orchid, and I think before that, Highlanders. The more historical the story, especially non-popular or non general, the lower the popularity. Generally or anecdotal at least. Van Gogh is sorta the exception.