Why no Constitution class ships in the 24th century?

[Timo]

For all we know, the back wall of the fake transporter room opens up to reveal an advanced medical laboratory.

And the rest of the corridors are there just to keep Kirk happily distracted. Although thanks to all the drugs, they only needed to build about, oh, one movie studio's worth of partial sets, cleverly connected so that the confused Kirk runs in circles... Something made easy by the very geometry of the Constitutions!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

For all we know, the back wall of the fake transporter room opens up to reveal an advanced medical laboratory.

I'll accept that, but only if it's a classic Frankenstein type laboratory with one of those electric thingies!

And the rest of the corridors are there just to keep Kirk happily distracted. Although thanks to all the drugs, they only needed to build about, oh, one movie studio's worth of partial sets, cleverly connected so that the confused Kirk runs in circles... Something made easy by the very geometry of the Constitutions!

Indeed, there's nothing to suggest that the entire Enterprise was duplicated beyond a voiceover by Kirk, which was itself (mentally) recorded mere "minutes" after beamdown (according to Spock). We know that he was unconscious for 9 of those minutes. Exactly how much effort did Kirk put into searching "every area of the ship"?

 

[David cgc]

While I agree with your logic, I think one of the reasons they didn't make changes like that was because they probably thought that the TOS films would continue to be produced for a far longer time than they actually were, so they would need the models unaltered for the 23rd century time period.

They were able to make reversible additions to the Reliant model for the Bozeman and Saratoga (and made a game attempt at it on the Excelsior for Generations, even though they ended up being permanent). As it is, I think the most they did was replace the circular movie-era Starfleet pennant with the oval E-D-style one (and, later, the yellow, circle-less version) whenever they replaced the decals.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Maybe Kirk just did an internal scan of the whole ship, not a visual check? Now the posters above have me wondering: did the citizens of Gideon have a Constitution-class model at full size...or did they have a captured Saladin or some such? If so, it might explain the refit, but no why Mirandas are in TNG but not Constitutions.

 

[Dukhat]

They were able to make reversible additions to the Reliant model for the Bozeman and Saratoga (and made a game attempt at it on the Excelsior for Generations, even though they ended up being permanent).

Quite true, but again those changes were made after it was a given that there would be no more TOS films produced. But yeah, I suppose they could have made those kinds of reversible changes earlier; I think it was just a matter of budget/time/uncaringness that it didn't happen.

I remember reading somewhere that during preproduction for TNG, the producers didn't want to build any other new Starfleet or Klingon ships because they didn't want to spend money building models if the show got cancelled after the first season. While that was sound logic I suppose, it ended up biting them in the ass later, as the producers always tried to shy away from building new models even when the script called for them. If they just had the foresight to build them at the start, we wouldn't have seen so many older models, if any.

 

[Ithekro]

The change to the Miranda-class model (at the time was still the USS Saratoga from Star Trek IV) that removed the rollbar was due to the lighting rig having failed and the only way to get the model scene worthy was to remove it, since they couldn't fix it (or didn't have time to fix it.)

 

[blssdwlf]

Maybe Kirk just did an internal scan of the whole ship, not a visual check? Now the posters above have me wondering: did the citizens of Gideon have a Constitution-class model at full size...or did they have a captured Saladin or some such? If so, it might explain the refit, but no why Mirandas are in TNG but not Constitutions.

I would imagine it would be a full size of a Connie since Kirk could go anywhere in a turbolift. Heck, the Gideon's worker bees even bothered to build a never seen before set for Kirk to open a window shutter!

 

[Mytran]

Except that:

1. It would simplicity itself for the fake turbolift to make the "ERRK" error noise every time Kirk requested a location that the Gideonites hadn't thought to build
2. It still wouldn't allow him to search the entire ship in the mere moments we are told he has available

The rest of the ship set need not consist of more than a level or two of certain corridors, filled in with non functional doors at the entry/exit points.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

I think that if the people of the planet of Gideon even had good enough photographs to be able to get as close posters here are pointing out, even with a drugged Kirk or only partial ship, then clearly Star Fleet's design workshops have a problem. The odd part is that TOS and the movies in general seem to support the idea of retiring ships much more than TNG.

The Excelsior and Miranda are the two most commonly shown classes by number of appearances, even though they should have been old at that time. The reasons off-screen are simple, both are obviously a Star Trek ship, and obviously not the Enterprise. One has the Enterprise's visual form but not its configuration, and the other has its configuration but not its visual form.

But I keep thinking, (in-universe) if the Excelsior is so effective as a cruiser that it replaced the Constitution, why are there still so many Mirandas seen and not so many Centaurs? It seems like 30000 series Mirandas ought to really be Centaurs.

Maybe Centaurs were only constructed to replace Mirandas as they were lost, and that is why we don't seem many of them. This might explain the small numbers of Ambassadors also: the Ambassador is not a full-fledged redesigned cruiser but an update of the Excelsior when one is lost or new builds past a certain point once the Galaxy was in development.

 

[Timo]

Having high quality visuals from inside starships shouldn't be that unbelievable. Today, we get pretty good pics of top-secret combat jets against the wishes of those test-flying those jets. The quality is up because the tech is better; the access is up because the tech is better. ITRW, the trend is likely to continue, with total loss of privacy just around the corner. And perhaps Starfleet and everybody else have given up because defeat there is so inevitable?

Where were the Mirandas during TOS? Perhaps the Centaurs are at the same place during TNG/DS9, far away from the hunting grounds of the Enterprise lookalikes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

Well if we take Star Trek: Discovery into account, I would imagine the Miranda-class was built post-war to rebuild the fleet, along with a few new Constitution-class ships, as well as more after the refits were approved (or they refit several of them along with USS Enterprise, and new built more and more Miranda-class ships).

Though I still like the idea that the hull numbers are also an indication of where the ship was built, thus allowing for lower numbered hulls to be built after higher numbered hulls due to the place the lower numbered hulled ship was built builds less ships (like say Izar) than where the higher numbered ship's were built (like say Sol). So ships of the same class, like USS Eagle (900s), USS Constellation (1000s), and USS Republic (1300s), could be build after USS Constitution and USS Enterprise (1700s), and parallel to ships like USS Intrepid, and USS Exeter (1600s). And ships like USS Grissom (NCC-638) could be built much later, and other ships like USS Discover (NCC-1031) could be built slightly later than USS Constellation.

 

[XCV330]

Well if we take Star Trek: Discovery into account, I would imagine the Miranda-class was built post-war to rebuild the fleet, along with a few new Constitution-class ships, as well as more after the refits were approved (or they refit several of them along with USS Enterprise, and new built more and more Miranda-class ships).

I've had similar thoughts like that. Mirandas apparently were clearly useful for a long time, and apparently easier to build.

The British Swordfish bomber was a plane was the seemingly out of date already by the time that WW2 began, but it continued to do well in various roles and outlasted more than one aircraft design that was meant to replace it.

A more recent example would be the OV-10 Bronco that's been in and out of active service for decades. People keep finding uses for the things.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I've had similar thoughts like that. Mirandas apparently were clearly useful for a long time, and apparently easier to build.

Assuming Money isn't the limiting factor in our beloved UFP / StarFleet of the 24th century and beyond here's the flow chart of requirements for Mass Production.

- StarFleet Vessel/Facility Production requirements -
1) Raw Material availability
- Availability of existing Raw Material instead of Replicator Transmutation due to energy costs
- Energy and Capability to transmute one Base "Raw Material" to the desired correct one
- Ability to harvest and process "Raw Material" into desired one on a Mass Production Scale if Replicator / Matter Transmuter isn't available for to create desired Material (e.g. Neutronium Alloy)
2) Energy Production/Capacity to power all the work
3) Man Power and/or Automaton power for construction
4) Installation of all required Software & Equipment
6) Testing & Validation Capacity by appropriate people
7) Assembling & Training of Qualified Crew to serve on vessels
8) Maintenance & Servicing Depot Capacity
9) Logistical support capacity of vessels/facilities while out in Space

That being said, smaller vessels will always be logically easier to field in larger numbers just like IRL.

 

[blssdwlf]

Except that:

1. It would simplicity itself for the fake turbolift to make the "ERRK" error noise every time Kirk requested a location that the Gideonites hadn't thought to build
2. It still wouldn't allow him to search the entire ship in the mere moments we are told he has available

The rest of the ship set need not consist of more than a level or two of certain corridors, filled in with non functional doors at the entry/exit points.

That would of been hilarious where Kirk keeps getting denied by the turbolift trying to exit it but it would change the story.

KIRK: I am on the Enterprise but something is wrong. I tried to search every area of the ship but I can only access a small part. There are vast areas of the ship that are sealed off from me. Are my crew trapped and in need of help? The one thing that is obvious is that I suffered a memory lapse, during which time I bruised my arm. It is causing me some irritation.​

 

[Mytran]

I honestly don't think Kirk even attempted to physically search every area in the ship. Remember what happened in This Side Of Paradise or The Omega Glory? He just got on the tannoy and asked anyone on board to respond. Given the mere minutes available as presented in the episode, I think this is the most likely course of action for our hero captain.

Also, did I mention that I think he was on drugs?

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Where were the Mirandas during TOS? Perhaps the Centaurs are at the same place during TNG/DS9, far away from the hunting grounds of the Enterprise lookalikes.

Timo Saloniemi

I can get behind that, and then this could also be the same reason we don't Constitutions in TNG like original poster was asking. If we allow all three cases, does not that mean that we can longer judge how popular/successful a design is by how often it is seen?

That would of been hilarious where Kirk keeps getting denied by the turbolift trying to exit it but it would change the story.

KIRK: I am on the Enterprise but something is wrong. I tried to search every area of the ship but I can only access a small part. There are vast areas of the ship that are sealed off from me. Are my crew trapped and in need of help? The one thing that is obvious is that I suffered a memory lapse, during which time I bruised my arm. It is causing me some irritation.​

I like your way better than the way that is presented in the episode. Makes a ton more sense, and ties into Day of the Dove

 

[blssdwlf]

I honestly don't think Kirk even attempted to physically search every area in the ship. Remember what happened in This Side Of Paradise or The Omega Glory? He just got on the tannoy and asked anyone on board to respond. Given the mere minutes available as presented in the episode, I think this is the most likely course of action for our hero captain.

Also, did I mention that I think he was on drugs?

LOL. I agree that Kirk's search on the Gideon-prise was probably not as thorough as it sounded but I think drugged or not he would of made his way around the main areas of the ship and any inaccessible areas would of raised his suspicions of the situation. In "This Side of Paradise", Kirk did have an unknown amount of time between his beam up to search the ship on the way up to the bridge and his PA call to the other sections were out of completeness. In "The Omega Glory" he sent Spock and the other guy to search the other decks in addition to the PA call out.

Plus we also have Spock visiting the Gideon-prise. He said it was "an exact duplicate of the Enterprise" and he wasn't drugged and had time to scan around with his tricorder. He doesn't say that it's an exact duplicate of a few rooms or deck of the Enterprise

 

[Mytran]

Plus we also have Spock visiting the Gideon-prise. He said it was "an exact duplicate of the Enterprise" and he wasn't drugged and had time to scan around with his tricorder. He doesn't say that it's an exact duplicate of a few rooms or deck of the Enterprise

We saw him in the Transporter Room and on the Bridge - as with Kirk, he certainly lacked the time to physically explore all duplicate rooms but probably made extensive use of that tricorder to form his conclusions.

There is of course this little exchange from when Spock is on the Bridge:

SCOTT: Those were the co-ordinates you insisted on.
SPOCK: And they were correct. I'm on board an exact duplicate of the Enterprise.
MCCOY: An exact duplicate of the Enterprise? Is it in orbit, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: In orbit, Doctor. In a manner of speaking, Gideon is in orbit and the ship is on Gideon.

However, to take Spock literally we would have to believe that the Gideonites didn't just contruct the Enterprise interiors, but the exteriors also - which really would be overkill!
IMO, since Spock never says how much of the Enterprise is duplicated, just that those duplicate sections are exact then his statement is equally true whether only a corridor, a few levels or the entire interior were built on the planet. It is all the Enteprise, and therefore can be considered "the ship".

 

[Timo]

Of course, at the root of the issue is the odd fact that Gideon is so extremely crowded yet goes for a space-consuming construction project in its search for a solution. Wouldn't it be too late to put aside a 400 by 200 by 200 meter volume of otherwise habitable real estate? Smaller would be better...

Spock deems the replica "completely inoperative". So...

1) Did the Gideonites shut her down when Kirk no longer was fooled?
2) Or did Kirk always just imagine the workings, the beeps and flashes and soothing data?
3) Or does the replica only work around Kirk, and indeed everybody closely follows Kirk but leaves the other parts of the ship utterly unattended?

In the third model, we might even speculate on an interior that is built like the Desilu set, and being erected ahead of Kirk and dismantled behind him to make use of limited overall "studio" volume. The "standing set" part of it would naturally feature the transporter room, a corridor to a turbolift, and the bridge, and naturally Spock would make successful use of those exact bits in his most logical path to the heart of the mystery even when there were no stage hands available for "creating" further sections. But the turbolift would then be at least somewhat functional "for real", convincingly moving Spock or at least creating the illusion thereof, even though none of the buttons on the bridge worked correctly any longer.

(Incidentally, the bits we do see would be ones freely accessible to all sorts of riffraff. Whenever a starship captain hails folks, they supposedly see the Bridge on the background. Guests are walked through corridors to quarters, entertained at Mess Hall, and often inspected at Sickbay. Perhaps there would be no public images of Main Engineering or Phaser Control, but those locations aren't shown to be part of the illusion...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

With space so limited on Gideon, why not just build the major sections of the ship. If Kirk went into every room and area, he would not needed to use the allcall from the Bridge.