Has the Doctor been a Woman before?

[Nightowl1701]

MacQueen's Master is the first of the new cycle, actually resurrected a bit before the Time War (but still well into Eight's lifetime). He then apparently became a small child (somewhere early into the War itself, seen in Titan comics), then Jacobi.

Prior to that... it's a bit of a mess.

 

[Starkers]

For the most part, I got the feeling that 9 and 10 were just travelers, doing their best to save those in trouble. Most mythology surrounding them was based on their actions.
11 on the other hand got turned into Time Lord Jesus. Don't know about the earlier instances.

RTD loved religious iconography and treating the Doctor as Jesus. In Last of the Timelords humanity literally prays to the Doctor to save them, and then there's this of course...

 

[Qonundrum]

Nope. None of his incarnations were given numbers. Hell, The Doctor's barely were referred to until the new series.

McCoy openly stated "seventh persona"... Davison stated "fourth (regeneration)" in "The Five Doctors", and in "Mawdryn Undead" he also mentioned the regeneration count and how many remained.

 

[Christopher]

Addressing the main topic of the thread... am I the only one who took Thirteen's line about being a sister in exactly the same way that I took Twelve's line about being a Vestal virgin? To me it was just a bit of banter about having once been/pretended to be something traditionally feminine. It's a variant on the classic Doctor "name dropping" that Four and Five excelled at, and all of Seven's befuddled ramblings, and all of the myriad references that all of them have made in Big Finish stuff. I don't think for a moment it was meant to be taken literally and that there was a previous female incarnation heretofore unknown.

Good point. "Rule One: The Doctor lies." Or at least exaggerates for the sake of a good yarn.

It's just a throwaway line. Have we in fandom all become so precious about every little thing that we have to take what's obviously a jokey aside and turn it into some vast conspiracy?

Agreed. It can be fun to speculate about what these little throwaway details could imply, but too many fans take it far too literally and seriously and take the fun out of it.

As for the Master... I always thought that the Pratt/Beevers Master was the Delgado Master, just burned beyond recognition. I always thought the "it's his last incarnation" fact originated during the Pertwee era, long before The Deadly Assassin.

I think you're probably right that Pratt was meant to be a deteriorated Delgado Master, which was why they put him in makeup rather than just having the Master show up in a new regeneration. But the "last regeneration" fact could not have originated before "The Deadly Assassin," because "Assassin" was the story that first established that Time Lords had a finite number of regenerations.

On the other hand, even if that was the intent, I don't think it works that way in practice. Ainley's Master had a somewhat different personality from Delgado's. Delgado's Master was Professor Moriarty; Ainley's was Snidely Whiplash. So it's hard to believe they're the same incarnation.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

McCoy openly stated "seventh persona"... Davison stated "fourth (regeneration)" in "The Five Doctors", and in "Mawdryn Undead" he also mentioned the regeneration count and how many remained.

As well as The First Doctor referring to himself as the original in The Three Doctors.

...and that's about it, which is my point. There have been many references to which incarnation is which in the new series, especially during the Moffat era.

 

[TJ Sinclair]

On the other hand, even if that was the intent, I don't think it works that way in practice. Ainley's Master had a somewhat different personality from Delgado's. Delgado's Master was Professor Moriarty; Ainley's was Snidely Whiplash. So it's hard to believe they're the same incarnation.

Moriarty and Snidely is exactly how I've always thought of them. Though, the change in personality can be explained as whatever disfigurement the Master went through between Delgado and Pratt drove him absolutely insane.

While I have fun with Ainley's Master, the more I see of the Pertwee era as an adult, the more I wish there was more to the later Masters than just insanity. Delgado's villainy had an intelligence behind it, while Ainley, Roberts and Simm all just chewed scenery. Jacobi showed us a glimpse of greatness, and one day I'll get around to listening to his Master audios, where I hope he'll be more Delgado-esque. Missy, though, teeters right on the edge of both. She's the first Master we spent any time with on TV since the original that brought back the quiet, sinister intelligence, as opposed to bouncing off the walls all the time. I mean, she could still ham it up, but there were always moments where she was restrained, and had so many nuances that Michelle Gomez is so great at.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Ainely wanted to do a more serious take on The Master, notably in Planet of Fire, but Jonathan Nathan-Turner always insisted Ainley should perform the role campy.

 

[Christopher]

As well as The First Doctor referring to himself as the original in The Three Doctors.

That was "The Five Doctors," but "The Three Doctors" did have the Time Lords referring to him as "the earliest Doctor."

 

[BritishSeaPower]

I seem to recall that there's some dialogue in MacQueen's audios that implies he was "saved from a predicament" - an inference to the eye of harmony - by the Time Lords and given a new lease on life for something coming the down line where they would need his talents - inferred to be the Time War. So it's not exactly specific, but unless Big Finish introduce a new Master before him, it's safe to assume MacQueen is the first form of the Master's second set of regenerations.

Titan Comics did introduce a child version of the Master, presumably to make sense of Yana's implication that he was a literal child when he was found in the far future. However, I think once Big Finish introduced the War Master persona, they had the child version regenerate into Jacobi to close that loop.

MacQueen -> Child Master -> Jacobi War Master/Chameleon Arc Yana-> Simm -> Rodriguez

Things like the "Tipple Master," the return of the "Decayed Master" before the Tipple Master but after Survival and "First Frontier," the "Man with the Rosette" from the 8th Doctor novels, etc. have really complicated the Master's timeline. (I think at one time Big Finish were also pushing for a "third" Decayed Master era after Eric Roberts and before MacQueen but I think they realized that got complicated and used the MacQueen/Beevers arc to clean that up.) While the good thing about Doctor Who is that both everything is canon and nothing is canon, the infrequent appearances of the Master and secrecy ended up creating a ton of stuff.

Plus there's the now the First Doctor-era Master from the David Bradley's audio who is a pre-"The Dark Path" incarnation.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

That was "The Five Doctors," but "The Three Doctors" did have the Time Lords referring to him as "the earliest Doctor."

Ah, right, thanks for the correction. Sleep deprivation is wonderful.

 

[Starkers]

I don't see a problem Masters having different personalities, I mean the Doctors do?

 

[Christopher]

I don't see a problem Masters having different personalities, I mean the Doctors do?

Yes, that's exactly the point. The suggestion above was that Ainsley's Master was the same incarnation as Delgado's after he took over Tremas's body, but what I'm saying is that their different personalities suggest that they're different incarnations altogether.

 

[Starkers]

Yes, that's exactly the point. The suggestion above was that Ainsley's Master was the same incarnation as Delgado's after he took over Tremas's body, but what I'm saying is that their different personalities suggest that they're different incarnations altogether.

Ah I see, apologies. That is an interesting point. I guess we could argue the trauma of ending up Beevers had an impact, and I suppose you could suggest some fragment of Tremas' personality remained (but Tremas wasn't remotely a campy villain!)

How canonical is it that the Beevers Master is the same incarnation as Delgardo?

 

[Christopher]

How canonical is it that the Beevers Master is the same incarnation as Delgardo?

There's nothing onscreen to indicate it one way or the other; I'm just saying it was probably the intention of the creators at the time. That, of course, does not require later creators to follow it.

 

[Jedman67]

RTD loved religious iconography and treating the Doctor as Jesus. In Last of the Timelords humanity literally prays to the Doctor to save them, and then there's this of course...

Yeah, there was that. I feel that Moffat took the concept and ran with it though.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

On the other hand, we had Matt point to himself in The Lodger and say to Craig "eleventh", and we know they found a way around that and he ended up "thirteenth".

I wouldn't have an issue with the Cartmel masterplan making the Doctor a reincarnated Other because he wouldn't necessarily have any "powers" the Other might have had. Even if the Doctor eventually remembered something from the time.

 

[Christopher]

On the other hand, we had Matt point to himself in The Lodger and say to Craig "eleventh", and we know they found a way around that and he ended up "thirteenth".

I wouldn't say they found a way around that; it just sort of happened. Once they couldn't get Eccleston for "The Day of the Doctor" and had to create the War Doctor as a "secret" incarnation, that added one more life to the roster; and that left only the question of whether the Tenth Doctor's aborted regeneration counted or not, and it was logical to conclude that it did (because it did use up an entire regeneration's worth of energy). I suppose Moffat could've found a way to handwave that the Tennant semi-regeneration didn't count if he'd wanted to, but I can't blame him for leaning into the opportunity to resolve the question of what would happen when the Doctor ran out of regenerations.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I wouldn't say they found a way around that; it just sort of happened. Once they couldn't get Eccleston for "The Day of the Doctor" and had to create the War Doctor as a "secret" incarnation, that added one more life to the roster; and that left only the question of whether the Tenth Doctor's aborted regeneration counted or not, and it was logical to conclude that it did (because it did use up an entire regeneration's worth of energy). I suppose Moffat could've found a way to handwave that the Tennant semi-regeneration didn't count if he'd wanted to, but I can't blame him for leaning into the opportunity to resolve the question of what would happen when the Doctor ran out of regenerations.

They kinda did find a way. They could have made 8 the "war" Doctor, which, even if they still made meta-Tennant a regeneration Smith would have been 12. It may have been inevitable that Moffat wanted him as 13 so he could do the dramatics of a "final" Doctor.

 

[Christopher]

They kinda did find a way. They could have made 8 the "war" Doctor, which, even if they still made meta-Tennant a regeneration Smith would have been 12. It may have been inevitable that Moffat wanted him as 13 so he could do the dramatics of a "final" Doctor.

The point is, those were probably separate decisions. Laypeople like to assume that writers have everything planned out years in advance, but even when there is a general master plan, it goes through many changes over time in response to more immediate needs and circumstances. The creation of the War Doctor did result in the opportunity to define Smith's Doctor as the last of his original cycle, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was specifically intended to do so at the time. I mean, it's pretty obvious that the reason Moffat created the War Doctor instead of bringing back McGann is because John Hurt was a much more famous actor and a much bigger draw for the anniversary special.

 

[Hey Missy]

I feel that Moffat took the concept and ran with it though.

But when?