• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Rosa grade and discussion thread

How do you rate Rosa?


  • Total voters
    99
I'm not sure I wanted any more info on the bad guy tbh. I mean if you came up with some heart wrenching background that showed there are two sides to every story type thing then fine but it felt like he was just your garden variety serial killer, racist. I didn't need a whole American history X of showing him falling in with the wrong crowd, going to jail etc. Not if you still want to do the whole Rosa Parks history thing. I think he was a villain who served his purpose for this story, nothing more and nothing less.
The use of the sonic didn't seem any worse than it has since Who came back so I'm kind of, not accepting but over that. She didn't wave it round like a weapon so that's something.

I'm remaining on the fence. We're told a lot about this so-called villain and we can all hate him for the act he intends to do - that's simple, we get it. Villains are written to be hated. We all hate the situation, that's pretty straightforward. But a lot of people were expecting and wanting to loathe him above all else, given the severity of the plot and ramifications. As with another limp and poorly written villain, a certain Dr Soran from a certain Star Trek movie and remember Soran had no qualms exterminating millions of beings or multiple races to go back to the Nexus, there are lots of people mentioning the lack of substance to the character of Evil Leaper Fonzie or whatever his name was. He did even have a name? Or was he so zero-dimensional he didn't even have a name?! So zero-D that nobody's remembering it? There's no way around it, the script does not need Evil Leaper NoName him at all. It's amazing what a reaction people have had regarding the cardboard cutout, considering...

...he's barely in it for maybe 5 minutes and not doing anything else apart from trying to delay a bus and how's he so sure he knows what the outcome of that would be. In actuality, he might end up only delaying the movement by a short period of time and remember that Rosa was not the first to refuse person to give up her seat, nevermind other issues leading up to that day. Or why he couldn't zap Rosa with his gun an hour into the future, bypassing the historical event entirely. A lot simpler, that would be... assuming the gun did that, there's not enough in the Evil Leaper Fonzie to really give a rat about. He had no menace, no intrigue. The bus driver and racists in the diner did more to evoke tension and intrigue and they were the legitimately throwaway secondary and tertiary characters.

Also, how come the TARDIS crew were surprised over the racism only after going inside the diner despite the huge sign out front about serving whites only? That's nothing compared to the other issues-

Had the villain been written properly, given some additional depth instead of the paint-by-numbers generics that most people are going to agree with off the bat, the use of "the sonic" may have been a lot easier to not think into, it's been used casually enough in a "pro-science" show over the last decade that only a few still believe it's even remotely pro-science, but at least Classic Who tried using constraints and accuracy - and not always getting that right either, so on the magic wand I now no longer care. Was still expecting a lot more from Chibnall overall so far for this season. If the writing is so bad that people are guessing it's an arc not because the villain is zero-dimensional. And maybe that's supposed to be the case, in which case there is some originality here. Underwhelming for its own sake. Big but not big. Yet in an episode that should have been no less than epic? It's a good docudrama or biopic once you take out the sci-fantasy, which amounts mostly to the villain and "the sonic" (here or not, like it or not, concede or not, it nevertheless allows for too much lazy cop-out writing) and easily use other cues to get people going to where they need to go.

They should have kept it as a pure historical and the Doctor and companions on the sideline instead. Or made proper use of the villain instead of being a walking prop.

It's not that we need more information about him. He and his motivation were sufficiently explained. He's a racist from the future who thinks civil rights is where things went wrong.

We needed more effective use of the villain in this story. He was not menacing at all. His plan involved disrupting the bus schedule. Just something more there would've been nice.

So, not more information about him. More effective use of him to make him an interesting character who is more dynamically involved with the story.
(emphasis added)

Just saw your message before posting! You nailed it. That's the definition that many (especially me) were unable to articulate in conversation. The setup was sufficient, the execution was just underwhelming and even pitiful. He easily could have been going around town doing more to derail the civil rights movement. A story on the bigger picture would have dealt with his lack of use completely and a lot more effectively. To the point nobody would be complaining about him.
 
Okay I think I get it now, people saying that what if the story was due to the doctors arrival knocking history off course and her having to put it right are because that's what it felt like he was. Not an evil man trying to derail humanity but just a tiny nudge off course that was fairly easily corrected. Yeah I guess I see that. I guess that would cloud my view on a rewatch but I'll credit the show for my not realising that while I was watching it first time.
 
So what if, I'm just spit balling here, the dude was less "evil" but like far more racist? Like drop the killing thousands angle because that gives the impression that he is going to be doing far more in the story and maybe explain the reason that he doesn't just kill of kidnap Rosa as he considers himself to "advanced" for that sort of thing. Heck maybe even when he first sees the Tardis he sees that as proof that he's right and there couldn't have been a black movement without advanced help from the outside. He's just "repairing the timeline" from outside interference.
 
Posted elsewhere....
* I'm not really a DW fan as I find its filmmaking more than a little clunky and on-the-nose. The 'villain' was lame if fun :D
* But that was an episode with a lot of interesting content
* Liked the Aaron Copland nods in score
* Didn't find Rosa actor's accents that jarring (heard a lot worse - Benedict Cumberbatch, looking at you)
* Heard elsewhere it's first Who episode written and directed by PoC (after 50yrs+, that's something) - though Chibnall gets a co-writing credit :shifty:
* South Africa makes a surprisingly good stand-in for Deep South
* I really liked Graham!
* Jodie Whittaker reminds me of a lot of friends kids :D
 
100%? I don't know. You would have to ask the writers. All I can say is account for are my own personal thoughts on the matter and to me, it looked like they were putting bigots on display in Doctor Who featuring the first female Doctor that many "fans" took issue with because she is a woman--the very definition of bigotry.

So, yeah, it went through my mind.

So...the pipe people in happiness patrol were there because McCoy was a short arse?

;)

I wouldn’t read so much into it personally. Who does this stuff from time to time. It’s a rare time period to touch though, they usually stick to more distant times for potentially contentious stuff. Fenric was considered touch and go for setting in the way Delta Nd the Bannermen (which deals with similar issues to this, funnily enough) wasn’t. It’s unusual. But I don’t think this is deliberately ‘one in the eye’ especially given the shows history.
 
So...the pipe people in happiness patrol were there because McCoy was a short arse?

;)

I wouldn’t read so much into it personally.

I didn't ask you to. And the idea they were trolling fans wasn't something that pervaded my watching of the show. Sometimes art operates on different levels, people see different things. It's what makes things interesting to talk about. I enjoy the possibility that art might be saying more than one thing. I enjoy things that have complexity. Is it always there? No. Is it sometimes there? Yes.

Who does this stuff from time to time. It’s a rare time period to touch though, they usually stick to more distant times for potentially contentious stuff. Fenric was considered touch and go for setting in the way Delta Nd the Bannermen (which deals with similar issues to this, funnily enough) wasn’t. It’s unusual. But I don’t think this is deliberately ‘one in the eye’ especially given the shows history.

Like I said, I'm not saying it was 100%, it was merely a thought that passed through my mind. And I wouldn't be surprised if it passed through the producers minds.

Personally, I would love it if they did deliberately "one in the eye" for those "fans." Because, seriously, what creator wants bigots and assholes to be fans of their work? They won't, because they are professional and they have bosses who wouldn't approve, but, seriously, fuck the bigots.
 
Okay I think I get it now, people saying that what if the story was due to the doctors arrival knocking history off course and her having to put it right are because that's what it felt like he was. Not an evil man trying to derail humanity but just a tiny nudge off course that was fairly easily corrected. Yeah I guess I see that. I guess that would cloud my view on a rewatch but I'll credit the show for my not realising that while I was watching it first time.

Oops. I used Soran/Generations for comparison only because everybody at the time thought he was a fairly mundane wishy washy villain with no background in order for the audience to really loathe and feel for once he's defeated. If one wants character drama. The situational drama is an easy crutch to stand on, nobody on this forum condones racism so it's obviously a moot point, but I'm responding more openly in that regard.

IMHO, noneamegeneric5oclockshadowevilfonziebecauseheissolamenobodyweantedtonamehim is still evil - the plot has some basic verbiage in a generic setup of him but nowhere did I get an inclination to feel sorry for him and whatever his alleged plight is. Unlike Soran, where the writers made an attempt and couldn't decide if they wanted to make him sympathetic or evil. At least "Generations" had a lot more of a setup for Soran than noneamegeneric5oclockshadowevilfonziebecauseheissolamenobodyweantedtonamehim. That is my ultimate point, when Doctor Who does a worse job at setting up a villain than one of the more reviled TNG movies that fumbled with creating a villain.

The Doctor accidentally knocking history off course would have been a far better idea than to (bring in Evil Fonzie Whatshisname and do absolutely nothing with him except for what's less than the bare minimum, made more so because the topical issue at hand is where the gravitas is and not the character, which is so below "bland" one has to wonder how much of an afterthrought he is for the script.) Had this been a story on a fictional planet, all the people stating "BRILLIANT STORY!" wouldn't be anywhere near as enthralled and everyone would be railing on how lame evilfonziestickfigure is as a so-called character. So people love the situational drama and are trying to shoehorn in acceptance of a character who - on screen - is so secondary and sidelined to the plot and in such a small way (I already spelled it out about how little change would have been done to the timeline if the evilfonziemaniac was only interested in Rosa and nobody else) that the same story could be written half a dozen ways without evilpointlessfonzie and be so much better by comparison.

And I also did say "so-called villain" above because the writing of the episode is so poor regarding the character's usage that he's just a walking popsicle stick devoid of any depth. And almost as if he was an afterthought because apparently nobody wants real historicals anymore. Again, pretend this story is set on an alien world. People won't treat it the same. If it were a real historical and keeping focus, it would have been a lot better off.
 
NO NEW CHARACTERS!

It should have been the (sexy young) Meddling Monk.

Also, so long as our complaints are laser focused on this dude, I saw him do a fair American accent on Revenge for 4 years, it just seems more apt that an American Futureboy wrecks American history, or at the very least faking yankspeak is a great way not to be beaten to death by Xenophobes if you happen to be going about doing something sneaky.
 
Meddling Mother (Superior).

The alliteration is quintessential.

But no, I didn't mean to change the actor.

Who they had would have been fine, as the young sexy Monk.

Graeme Garden is the definitive Monk in my books.

(Big Finish. Although there's a new bloke wearing the cowl these days.)
 
Mostly good, but too heavy handed in parts -particularly that song. Having a reprise of it instead of the theme tune for the closing credits made it worse.
The episode was better than the previous one but I hate historical show pieces... all that posturing is very predictable.

This new Doctor is kind of ordinary.
 
Well, that’s just like your opinion, man.

I loved the simplicity of his plan. Since he couldn’t kill her, nudge history the right way and it changes.

Except it was going to happen eventually. What was his plan, to slow down part of the civil rights movement until something similar inevitably happened? Rosa Parks was important, you obviously can't take that away from her, but her not being in that situation doesn't make all the other events or the big civil rights leaders disappear. If he can go back in time to keep a woman from a bus, why not go and kill people like MLK in the crib? Even as idiotic plans go, this one was bad. In no way was it going to stop the inevitable, at most its a delay that probably wouldn't even last a few years, it sure as hell wouldn't matter by the time period he is from.

History doesn't change like that. Sometimes, changing the events in one person's life could change history, but Rosa Parks not getting in trouble on a bus doesn't delete the eventual achievements of the Civil Rights movement by any stretch of the imagination. It was a bad plan in a mediocre episode that was preaching about something that normal people don't need to be told and terrible people won't give a shit about. Like I said, this is easily the most pointless episode in possibly the entire franchise. Far from the worst, its not a bad episode, but it felt like the biggest waste of 45ish minutes I've sat through. If the villain had been trying to do something that wasn't ultimately useless even if he succeeded, maybe it would have had a point (although it probably wouldn't have worked as an episode, since adding evil time travelers to events like this doesn't work, like I said before).
 
It was a bad plan in a mediocre episode that was preaching about something that normal people don't need to be told and terrible people won't give a shit about. .
I preferred the Agatha Christie episode because it was creating a story, a fiction to fill in those 'missing days'. It used something historical but had the wiggle room not to be predictable.
 
Rosa Parks was important, you obviously can't take that away from her, but her not being in that situation doesn't make all the other events or the big civil rights leaders disappear.
Claudette Colvin said that the only reason that she wasn't Rosa Parks was that Rosa Parks had better hair.

People were saying GFY to the bus drivers IRL, and getting arrested, like Claudette Colvin 9 months before Rosa Parks, but the civil rights movement was waiting for the right "face" to pin the movement on.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Considering that Rosa conveniently met with Martin Luther King (In Doctor Who Discontinuity) the night before her arrest, for a war council, it seems disingenuous not to assume that the whole thing was staged.
 
This is mediocre Doctor Who. Also, Time Travel is not magic. The Butterfly effect isn't an excuse for bad writing.

Time travel, for all we know, isn't real. Just like magic. Not. Real.
Doctor Who is a work of fiction, with fictional rules.
Also: you didn't say this was going to be mediocre Doctor Who, you literally said this ISN'T Doctor Who... so, again, why do you care?
But, BBC America thanks you for your support by watching.
 
I think people who have had a history of watching Doctor Who can't help but care. It's like an investment that means something to you. It's when you don't care that is sad.
 
I think people who have had a history of watching Doctor Who can't help but care. It's like an investment that means something to you. It's when you don't care that is sad.

Sure. But after one publicly states "I'm not going to consider this real Doctor Who"--because of the casting--it's sorta hard to take one's criticisms seriously anymore.

And, really, it's not all that sad when you stop caring about a TV show. It's sad when you stop caring about your child, or your parent, or the state of the world.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top